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  1. #1
    nopasties's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Interesting Legal Case

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/25/us...33a&ei=5087%0A
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Bush Weighed Using Military in U.S. Arrests
    By MARK MAZZETTI and DAVID JOHNSTON
    Published: July 24, 2009
    WASHINGTON — Top Bush administration officials in 2002 debated testing the Constitution by sending American troops into the suburbs of Buffalo to arrest a group of men suspected of plotting with Al Qaeda, according to former administration officials.
    Readers' Comments

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    Some of the advisers to President George W. Bush, including Vice President Dick Cheney, argued that a president had the power to use the military on domestic soil to sweep up the terrorism suspects, who came to be known as the Lackawanna Six, and declare them enemy combatants.
    Mr. Bush ultimately decided against the proposal to use military force.
    A decision to dispatch troops into the streets to make arrests has few precedents in American history, as both the Constitution and subsequent laws restrict the military from being used to conduct domestic raids and seize property.
    The Fourth Amendment bans “unreasonable” searches and seizures without probable cause. And the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 generally prohibits the military from acting in a law enforcement capacity.
    In the discussions, Mr. Cheney and others cited an Oct. 23, 2001, memorandum from the Justice Department that, using a broad interpretation of presidential authority, argued that the domestic use of the military against Al Qaeda would be legal because it served a national security, rather than a law enforcement, purpose.
    “The president has ample constitutional and statutory authority to deploy the military against international or foreign terrorists operating within the United States,” the memorandum said.
    The memorandum — written by the lawyers John C. Yoo and Robert J. Delahunty — was directed to Alberto R. Gonzales, then the White House counsel, who had asked the department about a president’s authority to use the military to combat terrorist activities in the United States.
    The memorandum was declassified in March. But the White House debate about the Lackawanna group is the first evidence that top American officials, after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, actually considered using the document to justify deploying the military into an American town to make arrests.
    Most former officials interviewed for this article spoke only on the condition of anonymity because the deliberations about the case involved classified information. They agreed to talk about the internal discussions only after the memorandum was released earlier this year.
    New information has recently emerged about the deliberations and divisions in the administration over some of the most controversial policies after the Sept. 11 attacks, like the decision to use brutal interrogation methods on Qaeda detainees.
    Former officials in the administration said this debate was not as bitter as others during Mr. Bush’s first term. The discussions did not proceed far enough to put military units on alert.
    Still, at least one high-level meeting was convened to debate the issue, at which several top Bush aides argued firmly against the proposal to use the military, advanced by Mr. Cheney, his legal adviser David S. Addington and some senior Defense Department officials.
    Among those in opposition were Condoleezza Rice, then the national security adviser; John B. Bellinger III, the top lawyer at the National Security Council; Robert S. Mueller III, the director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation; and Michael Chertoff, then the head of the Justice Department’s criminal division.
    “Frankly, it was a bit of a turf war,” said one former senior administration official. “For a number of people, crossing the line of having intelligence or military activities inside the United States was not worth the risk.”
    Mr. Bush ended up ordering the F.B.I. to make the arrests in Lackawanna, near Buffalo, where the agency had been monitoring a group of Yemeni Americans with suspected Qaeda ties. The five men arrested there in September 2002, and a sixth arrested nearly simultaneously in Bahrain, pleaded guilty to terrorism-related charges.
    Scott L. Silliman, a Duke University law professor specializing in national security law, said an American president had not deployed the active-duty military on domestic soil in a law enforcement capacity, without specific statutory authority, since the Civil War.
    Senior military officials were never consulted, former officials said. Richard B. Myers, a retired general who was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said in a recent interview that he was unaware of the discussion.
    Former officials said the 2002 debate arose partly from Justice Department concerns that there might not be enough evidence to arrest and successfully prosecute the suspects in Lackawanna. Mr. Cheney, the officials said, had argued that the administration would need a lower threshold of evidence to declare them enemy combatants and keep them in military custody.
    Earlier that summer, the administration designated Jose Padilla an enemy combatant and sent him to a military brig in South Carolina. Mr. Padilla was arrested by civilian agencies on suspicion of plotting an attack using a radioactive bomb.
    Those who advocated using the military to arrest the Lackawanna group had legal ammunition: the memorandum by Mr. Yoo and Mr. Delahunty.
    The lawyers, in the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, wrote that the Constitution, the courts and Congress had recognized a president’s authority “to take military actions, domestic as well as foreign, if he determines such actions to be necessary to respond to the terrorist attacks upon the United States on Sept. 11, 2001, and before.”
    The document added that the neither the Posse Comitatus Act nor the Fourth Amendment tied a president’s hands.
    Despite this guidance, some Bush aides bristled at the prospect of troops descending on an American suburb to arrest terrorism suspects.
    “What would it look like to have the American military go into an American town and knock on people’s door?” said a second former official in the debate.
    Chief James L. Michel of the Lackawanna police agreed. “If we had tanks rolling down the streets of our city,” Chief Michel said, “we would have had pandemonium down here.”
    The Lackawanna case was the first after the Sept. 11 attacks in which American intelligence and law enforcement operatives believed they had dismantled a Qaeda cell in the United States.
    In the months before the arrests, Mr. Bush was regularly briefed on the case by Mr. Mueller of the F.B.I. and George J. Tenet, the director of central intelligence. The C.I.A. had been tracking the overseas contacts of the Lackawanna group.
    In a Wall Street Journal op-ed article in March, Mr. Yoo defended his 2001 memorandum and its reasoning, saying that after Sept. 11 the Bush administration faced the real prospect of Qaeda cells undertaking attacks on American soil. “The possibility of such attacks raised difficult, fundamental questions of constitutional law,” he wrote, “because they might require domestic military operations against an enemy for the first time since the Civil War.”


    Posting this here becase it brings up a number of legal and constitutional issues. If the Bush administration had choosen to use troops in the arrest of these guys I believe the war on terrorism may have taken a more drastic nature. Too tired to flesh out all the intricacies before posting but figured I'd let you guys have at it.

  2. #2
    CtrlAltDe1337's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Interesting Legal Case

    I'm very glad they didn't. The more I hear about Bush/Cheney the more I'm glad they are out of office. Then I look at Obama and wish they were back (but that's for a different thread).


  3. #3

    Default Re: Interesting Legal Case

    Obfuscating truth is essential in carrying out ideological political motivations.

    http://writ.lp.findlaw.com/dean/20080919.html
    "Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "We have a protractor."

    Under Patronage of: Captain Blackadder

  4. #4

    Default Re: Interesting Legal Case

    I think this is another example of the neat little legal loophole that got set up in the Bush years.

    The Justice Department is supposed to be non-political and semi-independent from the Whitehouse, though a lot of this is based on unwritten rules ( some of which were turned into written rules after the Nixon administrations Saturday Night Massacre).

    During the Bush years, the Justice Department was polticized, with non loyal "Bushies" (a term taken from actual DoJ documents) being forced out, and a messege sent to the rest (which is what the whole Gonzolaz Hearings were all about.). Also a small cadre of lawyers were given the task of creating legal opinions that supported the administration's expansion of executive powers. Chief amoung these was John Yoo.

    Yoo and others provided a legal framework for the President to take on extrodinary executive powers, without consulting congress or the courts. In a strange way however, there is nothing inherently illegal in this arrangement, even if it led to un-constitutional actions.

    This is because the DoJ is supposed to be the first line of defense agaisnt abuse of power by the executive. It has been entrusted with setting up special investigators that can gather evidence outside of political influence in ways that Congress cannot. In the Clinton years, this responsibility was taken to the extreme by AG Janet Reno, who assigned special prosectors on two seperate occassions to investigate the President on relatively minor (in comparisson) transgressions.

    So with this history, getting legal support from the AG and DoJ is meaningful. And it is somewhat scary how things can break down when the DoJ doesn't do it's job. Its a fox in the hen-house feeling.
    Last edited by Sphere; July 27, 2009 at 04:36 PM.

  5. #5
    Buddhababe's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Interesting Legal Case

    Another scary thing is our elected representatives did nothing. They just believed Cheney and the White House. Why the hell would you just believe something because the Vice President said it? Why did they not demand proof or some sort of evidence? How stupid, gullible, naive and just plain ignorant out most of the elected officials out there? And many of them are still serving the public. That is why there is no call to real investigations of Cheney and his Cronies. ( I realize I was more responding to Chilon's article here)

    If this would of actually happened, imagine the precedent. What a scary thought. All civil liberties thrown out the door. And there is more. Did you ever hear of the Patriot Act 2 or the "Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003"? It never came to Congress, but they were just waiting with it.

    Analysis: http://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Terrori...I-analysis.php
    Actual draft of Bill: http://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Terrori...iot2draft.html

  6. #6

    Default Re: Interesting Legal Case

    Scary indeed... as a lawyer myself, I can't see how they think this falls outside the scope of Posse Comitatus. Terrorists are by their nature criminals, not soldiers. If they were soldiers, they'd be freedom fighters conducting a non-national military campaign against legitimate military targets.

    The Bush administration talked about "The War Against Terror" (a most apt acronym) and thats a misleading phrase typical of his era, because it was not by any normal definition of the word, a war.

    These people though are not soldiers and they're not freedom fighters, they're terrorists who commit mass murder and criminal damage to achieve political and pseudo political goals.


    Thats my take on US law... oddly enough though, in the UK, the Police have a statutory right to call in the military when dealing with the most dangerous of criminals, where those criminals are undoubtedly armed. While we have highly trained armed police officers, British SWAT units if you like, the ultimate fall back under civil contigencies legislation is for the civil power to request military assistance. In days gone by, this was a request to the local barracks and arrived in the form of the cavalry, today, it most usually involves the SAS.

  7. #7
    Darth Red's Avatar It's treason, then
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    Default Re: Interesting Legal Case

    I figure the best thing to do is let Mr. Cheney speak for himself.

    "If we make the wrong choice, then the danger is that we’ll get hit again -- that we’ll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the standpoint of the United States. And then we’ll fall back into the pre-9/11 mindset, if you will, that in fact these terrorist attacks are just criminal acts and that we’re not really at war. I think that would be a terrible mistake for us." Source: CNN.com Sep 7, 2004


    "The biggest threat we face today is having nuclear weapons fall into the hands of terrorists. The president is working with many countries in a global effort to end the trade and transfer of these deadly technologies. The most important result thus far is that the black-market network that supplied nuclear weapons technology to Libya, as well as to Iran and North Korea, has been shut down. The world’s worst source of nuclear weapons proliferation is out of business and we are safer as a result." Source: 2004 Republican Convention Keynote speech Sep 1, 2004



    The Buffalo Six (also known as Lackawanna Six, Lackawanna Cell, or Buffalo Cell) is a group of six Yemeni-Americans who were convicted of providing material support to al-Qaeda. The six are American citizens by birth.

    Perhaps he was on to something?

    The entire text of the Posse Comitatus Act is as follows:
    18 U.S.C. § 1385 - Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus "Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both". Accordingly, actions taken under the Insurrection Act have always been exempt from the Posse Comitatus Act.

    The Insurrection act explicitly states that military action can be taken domesticly if conspiracy, terrorist attack or incident, and other condition (I kid you not it actually says this)

    Where I have a tougher time explaning or "streaching" the law is the last condition of the Insurrection Act expicitly states the use only if "domestic violence has occurred to such an extent that the constituted authorities of the State or possession are incapable of maintaining public order."

    I guess that makes for the argument are you proactive or reactive? I tend to side with caution and would be pro-active.
    Officially Bottled Awesome™ by Justinian


  8. #8

    Default Re: Interesting Legal Case

    Pierre Trudeau did this in Canada, and he's universally admired for it.

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