Swords/Maces Unneccessary?

[Grinning Grenadier]

Something I noticed while playing is I can never have enough spears. They have many uses for me - stopping and killing enemy cavalry - holding the breach at the gates - generally holding and pinning infantry for the inevitable cavalry charge in the rear. So the question is raised - why would I want to use swords and macemen? I like the idea and look of the units but inevitably my swordsmen die like flies and when in a pitched open battle I can never find enough spears to halt the relentless cavalry flanking from multiple AI armies (LOVE the idea that 3 different AI armies converge on me and their cavalry works together) but swords generally I can do without in battles. I have never lamented "Where are my swords." in a battle but always curse "all I need is one more spear unit."

Some of my more successful generals just have spears, archers and cavalry with the occaional siege engine if I want to take a city on the same turn to avoid pesky papal enforced peaces. I know I read somewhere that the AI is encouraged to have more balanced armies but is the player? Spears seem far more flexible and have more uses than infantry.

Am I missing something?

[AnthoniusII]

Yes...beware armies that will have expirient swordmen against your spearmen...
Also swordmen/macemen are better in defending walls...

[bɑne]

Well as someone that just defended in a siege with a unit of Ritterbrüder against mostly spearunits I can only tell you I'd have lost would those ritterbrüder have been spearmen on my walls.
Also charging the flanks with cavalry is fine but I most often lack those or have only light units but sword and macemen do a nice job of rolling up the flank while the spearmen hold the line

[sumaznguy]

Well the AI tends to field cav heavy armies, so against AI mass spears and supporting missile/cav is great. I don't find much of a use for swordsmen, but I like macemen and other AP infantry. Makes them great at defeating infantry and cavalry.

[bɑne]

This AI tendency might be faction specific - egypt for example builds hedgehog stacks in my current campaign

[vimy]

spear units are great for holding a line. they are defencive in nature.

mace and sword are the best offencive infantry. .

in siege warfare, they are the best for capturing walls and fighting in the city square, easily beating spears of equal worth
in open field contests, I usually put the spears up front and the swords behind. spearmen do a good job pinning the enemy down, i can then flank with the sword men or reinforce the spears depending on how things go. mace and sword basically add depth and flexibility.

spears are cheap and ideal to soak up initial punishment, they can hold a line and have advantage against cavalry. they are their to make a good account ofd themselves and die with dignity

cavalry is there to shock and disturb the enemy, to force the enemy to think about depth in defence and thus reduce its offencive front. they usually are wasted in prolonged melee and can be made mute in a siege battle

the sword or mace, the infantry usually is the element that tilts the scale, especially in close battles. they have similar shock and assault skill as cav, with less spead but more durability. unlike cav however, they shine in siege battles where they can decimate spearmen and open the gates for the cavalry.
dont underestimate their worth.

[JiangZiya]

in RR/RC and SSTC these units are quite useful imho.

[Ichon]

In sieges or when playing a faction with poor or very expensive cavalry swordsmen are great 2nd option. Only time I regret swordsmen is fighting HA heavy armies. All other armies swordsmen more than pull their weight.

[Vae victis]

dont spears get minus four attack points when attacking anything other then cavalry? I like their availability and their cheapness but they get chewed up against swords or macemen. Given their flaws, I still use them as my frontline shock absorbers.

[bɑne]

The reason swordsmen chew away your spearunits might be the higher attack speed with swords and different shield stats etc.
Especially with real combat mod (and many spear militias having only +1 attack) minus four attack would result in minus 3 attack... or zero.
Can't imaging programmers to implement such a system but well I've done blunders myself...

[Vae victis]

I read somewhere here on the forums that spears get -4 attack penalty against swords/maces and a +4 bonus against cavalry.

[bɑne]

What bonuses do weapons have against other weapons, eg swords vs spears, long spears vs other spears

The spear bonusses are fed into the stats system in a couple of different ways, via the mounts bonusses (which are direct attack modifiers against units mounted on that particular mount type) and via the 'spear' weapon attribute. Units which are marked with spear gain a +4 combat bonus against cavalry and use the cavalry's charge bonus against them, while cavalry get a -4 attack penalty against them.

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpo...6&postcount=19
I thought I remembered this from Rome but that topic was all I can find. Nothing about a penalty against swordsmen.

Also I was wondering if your units where charged by the swordsmen, both charged, or your spearmen charged.
With that I'll throw a big topic into this
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=274235

Spearmen are the backbone of almost all M2TWarmies. They are cheap and very easily trained; the early ones need almost no buildings in castles and cities, as they can be trained in both. There are a lot of different types and they are cheap. Spearmen are used to add bulk, fight the enemy, especially other spearmen, hold them in place so you can flank and protect archers as a meat shield while the archers shoot the enemy. They are especially useful for crossbowmen and gunpowder infantry as these units need to stay still to have time to shoot. Spearmen aren’t the best killers: they never really cut their way through the enemy quickly unless they are facing cavalry and even then they will take a little while. They do kill but they tend to be more defensive; able to stay alive in melee and keep the enemy occupied, making them the best troops for holding units so you can flank them. They also are great for receiving charges as spearmen resist charges much, much better than other infantry and will take far fewer losses. You should make loads and loads of spearmen: early on your entire army will consist of spearmen, archers maybe some light cavalry and a general so get used to using them. Spearmen are effective against cavalry as they get a bonus and even the starting Spear Militia can wreck general’s bodyguards if there is enough, as generals are far weaker than in previous games. You always need spearmen and should have at least 4 units of them in any army. Later on you can phase some out for swordsmen when you can make them quickly, but you should always have some spears

Spearmen get +8 attack vs. Cavalry.

This might also help with the shieldwall versus spearwall question. Note that the topic is only about medieval but I doubt they changed much.

Swordsmen combine with spearmen and archers to produce the typical M2TW army. They tend to have good attack and morale and either very good or bad defence.

They are used(with exceptions) for charging in aggressively, doing most of the killing and working as steady strong troops wearing down the foe in straight melee, flanking the enemy and protecting other units. Swordsmen tend to kill more quickly than spearmen; their weapons have greater kill chances. They are most effective against spearmen but can fight any unit. Use swordsmen as your average aggressive attacking troops: they are versatile and can do anything required besides catch archers and horse archers. If you are using swordsmen to fight other infantry put them in two or three ranks as this allows them to get the most men into the charge killing more enemy on impact so less survive to cause damage. Swordsmen do not work well against cavalry: they take time to kill them and suffer from head on charges. If you are forced to use them to face cavalry put them in five ranks. This will let them absorb charges somewhat better, their ranks adding resistance against them and halting the charge sooner so they can get the cavalry in melee and kill them. A powerful charge by heavy cavalry will kill a LOT of swordsmen though; up to half the unit with really powerful cavally. It’s much better to let spearmen take the charge, and then charge your swords in to help the spearmen kill the cavalry. A deep formation will also cause them to die slower as men gradually get into melee and die gradually, which is useful if you don’t care about kills and just want them to hold their position against the enemy for as long as possible.

which is basicly what I ment with

The reason swordsmen chew away your spearunits might be the higher attack speed

[Vae victis]

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpo...6&postcount=19
I thought I remembered this from Rome but that topic was all I can find. Nothing about a penalty against swordsmen.

Thanks a lot for searching. That was nice of you to search the RTW forums too.

[Manoflooks]

The problem is, with out being able to hold alt and order my whole army to move in formation, its hard to go on the offense. Thats the problem with swordsmen and stuff-game mechanics, not units.

[bɑne]

So basicly we are no longer asking the merits of units but saying that the game mechanics are a problem?
You should be able to move them in formation just fine after grouping them besides that I dont really understand your post in relation to the topic.
Even if the game input is problematic the question of 1on1 domination between spear/swordbased types is still there

[Ichon]

Only time it is difficult to move in formation is if you need to change facing of your entire or large portion of your entire formation IE if enemy moves position from where you initially deployed faced vs or enemy reinforcements arrive faster than predicted and you need to shift some forces to meet them. Then I still haven't figured out how to get the units to retain formation gracefully as they all want to line up individually. I usually end up quickly ordering some sacrifice spear units to hold even if poorly positioned a few will slow down the enemy and focus on maneuvering the more valuable killing units into better position.

There should be no problem advancing your entire unit on a single facing retaining formation. You can also divide your army into right wing, center, left wing and group them in formation. They should retain it as long as you remember to use the group buttons and give them adequate time to arrive and get into position because they do lose position in the formation if moving to a different facing. Advancing straight ahead they retain position.

[merocaine]

Never position your swordsmen on the flanks or out front, they are Cavalry magnets and will get eaten alive by heavy cavalry.

Keep them in reserve (as a reserve) behind your spear men.

Bring them into play once the enemy Cavalry is engaged or routed.

Either use them up the middle to bolster the main line of spears, or use them as flankers if your cavalry/bodyguard is incapacitated.

Never use them as mainline infantry, never leave them on the flanks, only bring them into play once the enemy Cavalry is engaged.
The Idea is to preserve your Heavy Infantry for the siege to come. If your playing RR/RC decent swords are hard to come by, keep them alive for storming those walls!

[bɑne]

No problem - the big topic about units was a nice find

[Vae victis]

I am glad you proved me wrong though. I recently switched back to MTW2 after having played RTW for a few months. I thought that the combat mechanics would be similar, but I see that a lot of it is based on unit animations rather then solid numbers.

If this is the case, then what good are the unit stats like total attack and total defence anyways? A spear unit could have better stats then a sword or mace unit, but it will still get chewed up by them in combat because their animations are faster.

I have been generally playing with the notion that sword/mace beats spear, which beats horse, which beats sword/mace. Maybe I need to change tactics and learn a little more about MTW2 combat mechanics and animations.

[Point Blank]

You are correct, and stats have been adjusted for some weapons types due to their animation set.