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  1. #1
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
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    Default Modfoldered Options:

    I'd like some thoughts about this, because it's going to be something very new, I think, to RTW mods. Not modfoldering, of course, but how I'm going to use it. But first some theory behind all of this.

    One of the basic issues with RTW and any mod for it is that of balancing. Some mods don't really care or emphasize it much. Others, like RS, have tried hard to have major factions survive a long time...or at the very least not die off so soon. And many, many modders jump thru hoops trying to prevent the 'super faction' anomally. I don't know that all of this can be solved 'completely', but I am seeing a much better balance in RS2 than I ever saw in RS1.5. However, this brings with it another problem. Factions do well and survive well because they can defend themselves, and they have money. These are really the only keys to survival. If they have the units and the balance therein to defend themselves and beat off attacks...AND...the money to keep pumping these units out, they go down awful hard. The problem is that when you PLAY any faction under these circumstances, the typical complaint is that it's 'too easy'. And it's probably true, because RTW just doesn't compensate enough in favor of the AI to make it as challenging as we want it to be. Playing H\H helps, but it still isn't all that great, and VH\VH is a joke and broken.

    Now, I throw into this mix of ideas one of my favorite mods...SPQR. Not because playing all of it's factions is any good, but because playing ROME is a real challenge. The reason being, as everyone knows, that the whole mod is written that way. SPQR is really a 'Play Rome' mod. And to do that, you have to give the AI even MORE advantage than RTW's engine does. More money, unit balance perhaps slightly tipped in the AI's favor...it isn'y really a LOT of stuff that makes it harder, it's just a few things that put the player at a greater disadvantage. And there is no way to do this in a 'regular' mod for every faction.

    Thus, modfoldered options. Now, I want thoughts about this because it could get ugly. There are 18 playable factions in RS2. To specifically tailor a campaign for each one would mean 18 different modfoldered options. I have no problem with setting that up...but I imagine people will have a snit-fit figuring out how to play them. Some people can't even follow directions and install the mod properly in the first place (I'm speaking of RS1.5, not RS, because I understand all this upgrade stuff can get confusing), so asking people to set up all the proper shortcuts would be, well, perhaps a nightmare. But there are so many advantages to this.

    I have already set up a 'Play_Rome' modfolder. In normal RTW if you play this campaign, what you see when you get to the faction selection screen is just 'Romans'. No one else is playable. In BI\ALEX, this modfoldered version is the 'Provincial Campaign'. My tests of this setup so far are quite a bit different from the main campaign. After 20-30 years, Carthage and Rome are still slogging it out in Italy..with Rome switching hands back and forth a number of times. Controlled by the AI, the Romans have a heck of a time dislodging Carthage from their lands. Also, this is the setup where the 'Rebel' faction will shadow the Romans, and where all the scripted rebellions will occur. So my feeling is that separate modfoldered campaigns for factions is the way to go to make them more challenging than a 'balanced' RTW can.

    Yet another advantage of this system will be that I can have any faction shadow any faction...as long as that faction is not playable. So, let's consider a special 'Seleucid' modfoldered campaign where 'Parthia' shadows them. Every rebelling settlement goes to Parthia instead of the 'slave' faction. In others, Seleucid could shadow the Ptolemies...Pontus could shadow Armenia....the Arverni could shadow the Belgae and vica-versa...the variables are many and could make things a lot more interesting and hard for the player.

    The next use for this option will be the 'swap factions'....and this is where it gets really neat. We planned ahead in setting up RS2 so that many, many swap factions already have all their units in place. Bosporan, Massilia, Rhodes, Athens, Syracuse, Bithynia, Crete, Cyrene, Thracia, Boiotia, the Acheans....all of these have complete unit rosters already as good as any faction. Change a few files, a few banners, and away you you go. These will all most certainly be done at some point......but my question now is what factions do people think should have special setups? Some? All? Are some hard enough as it is? Should it be only the 'big' factions that get a wrist slapping to make them more of a challenge? Etc.

    And then, suggestions on how and what would increase the challenge for these factions.

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  2. #2

    Default Re: Modfoldered Options:

    well, as you see in SPQR, the real thrill of having a challenge appears right from the start ( for Rome), there are invading armies from Gaul and Carthage.
    the thing i thaught would be nice is if Hannibal and his carthaginians in the start of RS 2 beta beginning could have another stack of carthaginians with them, making it seem like a real difficult challenge and threat ( as it really was for rome)at the begining,

    this is just an idea, because i would like to see alot of exitement and danger at the start


    RS Beta Tester - Rome

  3. #3

    Default Re: Modfoldered Options:

    Agreed. Or Rome starts for the player with only say 5000 denarii, and you make the economy harder (difficult to adjust the stats too much as there are so many shared units).

    But yes, I think everyone is dying for a real challenge, right from the start, fighting for survival.


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  4. #4

    Default Re: Modfoldered Options:

    Well, I'd say go for it, as long as you've got the will, time and patience for it. It will surely enhance the gameplay, giving every faction an unique playing experience, especially with the swap factions involved.

    I wouldn't be worried about the people not being able to properly install the mod in that form. I mean, with a thorough tutorial, anyone could get set without problems. And if they do encounter problems, well hey, we're here - we'll help.

  5. #5
    Brusilov's Avatar Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Modfoldered Options:

    If this is to be implemented I think that all playable factions should be set up in this way. There will always be players who want to play different factions. I usually try and play each faction once in any RTW mod.

    If the install is set up properly with mod folders surely it's simply a matter of setting up a different shortcut for each faction?

    "C:\Program Files\Activision\Roma Surrectum 2.0 Beta\RomeTW-BI.exe" -nm -show_err -mod:RS2_Rome -ne -movie_cam
    "C:\Program Files\Activision\Roma Surrectum 2.0 Beta\RomeTW-BI.exe" -nm -show_err -mod:RS2_Averni -ne -movie_cam
    "C:\Program Files\Activision\Roma Surrectum 2.0 Beta\RomeTW-BI.exe" -nm -show_err -mod:RS2_Carthage -ne -movie_cam


    The alternate would be to have the default install set up to play as Rome. There could be a series of bat files in the '_Important_Stuff' folder that could be run to change the playable faction?

    Personally, the mod foldered way is probably the best way forward as each install would be the same. This should also mean that there would be no impact on people trying to play MP. Hopefully, the release of RS2 will trigger an interest in playing on-line against real opponents.

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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Modfoldered Options:

    But yes, I think everyone is dying for a real challenge, right from the start, fighting for survival.
    I'm not lol

    With regards to the swap factions... it depends whether they are 'different' enough to warrant swapping them in. I mean if say you add in Crete, but it has a roster similar to Sparta with a mix of something else, then why not just play as a Sparta? I don't know about anyone else, but the only reason I play as different factions is for diversity, for something new. If there's little difference between a group of factions, then whats the point of trying them all out? The only thing that will change is your geographical position.

    I think you guys have got the 'shadowing' thing down pretty well though, and i think that plus the other faction specific tweaks will make the game really interesting. Perhaps only start with the major factions to see if it all works ok, and then expand out to the others?

    But if you think modfoldering to itself is the way to go, then why not? Unfortuantly there's no real way to compensate for the people who just don't understand what they're doing, so if you're going to go down this route you're just going to have to accept that you will get a lot of technical questions on how to install the game.

    If possible (and stop me if it's not, because I don't know how this works) maybe keep the mod foldering options and stuff out of the shortcuts. I think more people will be able to swap data files in and out etc... then add things to the shortcut. Just my opinion anyway.

    Is it possible to write something into the installer? Like in 1.5 you can choose to install Force Diplomacy or whatever, in this you can choose which faction you want the game to be set up as, and it installs the relevent files in the relevany places, but also install the back ups when you want to change factions. If that's not possible then maybe make Rome the default faction, like the other guy said?

    Or... is it possible to write a mini re-installer for the game? Like say you do the initial install as Rome, but now you want to play as carthage, double click on this re-installer, chooes the faction you want to play as, and it does all the swapping and for you? I dunno, just some thoughts.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Modfoldered Options:

    Or... is it possible to write a mini re-installer for the game? Like say you do the initial install as Rome, but now you want to play as carthage, double click on this re-installer, chooes the faction you want to play as, and it does all the swapping and for you? I dunno, just some thoughts.
    Good idea, if it can be done. Or else get the initial installer to create a folder on the desktop with all the different faction shortcuts contained in there? That way we won't be cluttering up people's desktops


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  8. #8
    Gez's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Modfoldered Options:

    Quote Originally Posted by tone View Post
    get the initial installer to create a folder on the desktop with all the different faction shortcuts contained in there? That way we won't be cluttering up people's desktops
    That's what I was gona post. Imo, it's the most friendly way. They literally can't go wrong at all then. Don't even have to edit anything.

    @Ibram, I think alot of people will want the swap out faction because of a particular favourate they had in 1.5 or maybe that's where they are from in real life, or whatever the reason...people will wana play Syracuse because it's tough to start, people will wana paly Bosphorans because they get a huge variety of enemis early on. There's gona be people saying 'oooh I want this faction' and so on, so we can shut them up before they open their mouth by providing it to them with less skin off our backs. Likedvk said, everything is done for them, it's just a few data files and banners.
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  9. #9
    Ketchup's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Modfoldered Options:

    Quote Originally Posted by tone View Post
    Good idea, if it can be done. Or else get the initial installer to create a folder on the desktop with all the different faction shortcuts contained in there? That way we won't be cluttering up people's desktops
    Thats exactly what I was gonna say too. If we give players a shortcut foir every faction ready-made, so to speak, surely all they need to do is use the shortcut for the faction they want to play. People almost won't even have to know about the modfoldered stuff, they just have to click one of 18 .exe's. I think it would work that way...?

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  10. #10

    Default Re: Modfoldered Options:

    Looks like the best solution to me.

  11. #11
    Tankbuster's Avatar Analogy Nazi
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    Default Re: Modfoldered Options:

    When I first tried SPQR a couple of years ago, I didn't appreciate the challenge and uninstalled it after a few days. Guess I wasn't man enough for it back then

    Seriously though, I think this is a great idea. A great balance between the AI factions will always mean that the human player is at an advantage, since the AI is pretty inept at tactical and strategical planning. But if you could have different set-ups for every faction you play, that would really give a great challenge.

    What I would do is try to make these set-ups for every faction, but then also have a 'default' campaign (like RS2 is done now, where the game is not geared against the human player). This will be easier for some factions than for others (the geographical position of Italy means it's easier to defend against hordes of enemy stacks coming in, while for instance as the Boii, being in Mid-Europe, you would have a hard time already if the game was only slightly geared against you.

    What you could in these files would mainly be:
    1) cutting back on the starting infrastructure for the human faction (so that you can't retrain your mid-range and elite units and you have to use them carefully for a very long time)
    2) making the human units less strong, etc...
    3) advantages for the AI units (more buildings that make them experienced, for example)
    It could be really fun
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Modfoldered Options:

    I'm gona have to try SPQR. Just to see exactly what you guys mean...will get on it tommorow!
    -RS2 Trait & Ancilliary Dev/Beta Tester-

  13. #13

    Default Re: Modfoldered Options:

    Actually it'd have to be 36 shortcuts - one for each faction, RTW.exe and BI.exe


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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Modfoldered Options:

    Not to mention those difficult people who want to try it using the Alexander.exe ...

  15. #15

    Default Re: Modfoldered Options:

    Heh, in that case there will be one mother folder and 3 sub folders with shortcuts for each engine.

  16. #16
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
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    Default Re: Modfoldered Options:

    I think writing an installer to cover all these options would be...well, pretty hard. 36 plus shortcuts was one of the reasons I asked about this, because it would only multiply with swap factions. Perhaps, as been said, we will just have to 'educate' people how to set up shortcuts. It isn't really that hard, and takes only seconds.

    A good point made about some factions having an easier start no matter what you do, and others harder. I think factions like Scythia, Dacia, the Boii and a number of smaller factions are just hard to begin with because they have no 'naturally defensible boundries'. The Belgae can hide in Briton. The Germans have a choke point in Denmark....I guess it will just depend on what you guys say is 'hard' and what isn't. It isn't hard to set up the modfoldered option (at least it won't be once we get done tinkering).

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  17. #17
    Ketchup's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Modfoldered Options:

    Quote Originally Posted by dvk901 View Post
    I think writing an installer to cover all these options would be...well, pretty hard. 36 plus shortcuts was one of the reasons I asked about this, because it would only multiply with swap factions. Perhaps, as been said, we will just have to 'educate' people how to set up shortcuts. It isn't really that hard, and takes only seconds.
    Is it not possible then to set up all the shortcuts oursleves and just include them in a "Faction-specific Shortcuts" folder? That would save an awful lot of bother in terms of cutting down the number of "I can't set up this shortcut..." threads by a LOT. However, if this is not possible, then I guess you'll have to make a sticky explaining and describing the process...
    Last edited by Ketchup; July 16, 2009 at 08:37 AM.

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  18. #18
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
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    Default Re: Modfoldered Options:

    I suppose it's 'possible'.....but I wouldn't know how. Squid probably does.

    Creator of: "Ecce, Roma Surrectum....Behold, Rome Arises!"
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Modfoldered Options:

    I think the easyest thing will be with the shortcut parameters.This way I can play a campaign while my brother plays another, and I will don't have to change files all the time.So I think shortcuts for each faction will be the best choice.





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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Modfoldered Options:

    Quote Originally Posted by dvk901 View Post
    I suppose it's 'possible'.....but I wouldn't know how. Squid probably does.
    Isn't it just a case of setting up 36 different shortcuts? It would take a while and be tedious but wouldn't be too hard, I don't think... Copying each shortcut and setting the command line like this:

    "C:\Program Files\Activision\Roma Surrectum 2.0 Beta\RomeTW-BI.exe" -nm -show_err -mod:RS2_Rome

    Then you just change the green part for each faction. Supply these in an aptly named folder that is highly visible to the player and they can just swap out the one they're using onto the desktop and then use that one. Or am I getting this completely wrong?

    Also, good ideas Loukas!

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