Freewill and God

[ced93us]

If we accept the Lord as an omnipotent being then how can we accpet that we have freewill knowing that He knows all that has or will happen?

[Dead Sun]

Aquinas would answer "God knows what you will choose. You still make your choices, but he knows what those choices will be"

[Bucket of Lithium]

You still make your choices, but he knows what those choices will be

To me Aquinas's answer there completely contradicts itself in every way. For a God to be able to know our choices, he must have some way been able to predict them. If the choices we are to make can in any way be seen before they are even thought or acted upon, then they are not our choices as they must have been predetermined by the God figure who knows they will happen.

So to answer the OP, I do not believe you can maintain both a omnipotent all knowing God and free will, as one of the most defining characteristics of being all knowing would be to predict our choices, actions and events before they happen. If they've been predicted, they have already been decided upon, not by us but by some other means.

If you follow the arguement that the omnipotent being only created our lives, then yes you would be able to have both eventualities as no predicition is being made as to your future events. Simply all knowing God or free will in my opinion, a mixture of both never being viably possible.

[Chlodwig I.]

To me Aquinas's answer there completely contradicts itself in every way. For a God to be able to know our choices, he must have some way been able to predict them. If the choices we are to make can in any way be seen before they are even thought or acted upon, then they are not our choices as they must have been predetermined by the God figure who knows they will happen.

So to answer the OP, I do not believe you can maintain both a omnipotent all knowing God and free will, as one of the most defining characteristics of being all knowing would be to predict our choices, actions and events before they happen. If they've been predicted, they have already been decided upon, not by us but by some other means.

If you follow the arguement that the omnipotent being only created our lives, then yes you would be able to have both eventualities as no predicition is being made as to your future events. Simply all knowing God or free will in my opinion, a mixture of both never being viably possible.

I don't see the problem.
Just because we can predict the weather (with some accuracy)
doesn't mean we make the weather or we determin the weather.
The weather itself is still out of our control

[Imperator Romani]

Um, they are your choices. Just because He knows what they will be makes him bad how?

[The Count(er)]

Um, they are your choices. Just because He knows what they will be makes him bad how?

Where did anyone say he was bad? You got to start looking at what people are actually saying, instead of coming up with your own interpretations of it. But how can they be our choices if they're already decided before we even know about them, the choices are already made, so it can hardly be free will.

[Keravnos]

If we accept the Lord as an omnipotent being then how can we accpet that we have freewill knowing that He knows all that has or will happen?

This is how I view the matter: If by our own freewill, we manage to save ourselves and do the right thing, then we have earned our Just Reward. If it isn't done by our freewill then someone will always say that "hey, this was pre-ordained", therefore there is no meaning to both this life and to the other one (if the results are fixed). However, if we do have a free will and by that free will are able to save ourselves (God has left His Words for us to follow as best we can) then all is open, all is transparent, all is real. That some of us will falter and fail is unfortunate, but the point is, I think, that for those who will be saved will be by their own actions (after they live the Word of the LORD). I do believe that God knows his own and who will be spared in the end, while on the same time tries to save as many as He can. However, that doesn't mean that we can ever let our guard down. Nobody is automatically admitted to Heaven, and what we will find after we are gone is for us to discover.

[Claudius Gothicus]

If we follow the Abrahamic logic there's not freewill at all because God has already created everything, the past, the present and the future so freewill is a simple lie told by god to keep us happy and content with our miserable lives.

This is one of the main reasons why I stopped being a catholic long time ago you can't be free until you believe that time is linear and in constant development.

[ced93us]

If all is determined and we have no freewill then why does the Lord show anger or disapointment in the bible (this would indicate that He does not trancend time); or is this just the human interpretation of the Lord's infinitely complex feelings? If the Lord knows everything why would He give us the choice to follow His law or fail? (the tree of life) To accept the Lord's omnipotence and the freewill He gave us is such an impossible paradox that is wonder if it will ever be solved. (Unless we adopt double-think. As in the novel 1984)

[Imperator Romani]

Didn't quote anyone or talk to anyone directly, jus starting another point. I like how you seem to always find my posts and start some kind of debate or argument. You dodged the others...and thanks for the lectures, I need someone to set me straight.

They are your choices. You are choosing to do this or that. He's not forcing you to do a thing. Just because He knows what you will do doesn't mean , this doesn't disprove free will, infact, I think this is a completely failed way to do it.

[The Count(er)]

Didn't quote anyone or talk to anyone directly, jus starting another point. I like how you seem to always find my posts and start some kind of debate or argument. You dodged the others...and thanks for the lectures, I need someone to set me straight.

I never said you were quoting anyone or talking to anyone specific, you're putting words in my mouth, this is the discussion and debate forum, if I see something I don't agree with I'll argue against it, this is hardly anything new, it's not like it's a personal attack against you.

They are your choices. You are choosing to do this or that. He's not forcing you to do a thing. Just because He knows what you will do doesn't mean , this doesn't disprove free will, infact, I think this is a completely failed way to do it.

Well whether or not they're you choices has little to do with it being your free will to choose them, if it's already known that option A will be picked when your given options A, B or, C, then how did you choose option A by free will.

[MaximiIian]

What does omnipotence have to do with this? Does not the OP mean omniscience?

Oh, and the answer is simple: either exorcise free will from the concept; or even better, exorcise omniscience from it.

[Hakkapeliitta]

Well, since God is usually defined as omnipotent and omniscient, it's pretty difficult to have free will. I mean, before God created the universe, he knew all the possible universes he could create, but out of that infinite amount of different universes he chose to create this one. So every single thing to the tiniest detail was actively predetermined by God. Or maybe he threw dice. Oh wait..

[basics]

" If we accept the Lord as an omnipotent being then how can we accpet that we have freewill knowing that He knows all that has or will happen?"

ced93us,

Where do you get this free-will thing because God never said that your will was free?

[Imperator Romani]

Then why make it a problem and lecture me?

But you still picked option A, how are you missing that?

[The Count(er)]

Then why make it a problem and lecture me?

Well I really didn't mean for it to turn out like that, although I suppose re-reading it I can see how it could very easily interpret it as such, sorry about that.

But you still picked option A, how are you missing that?

Making a choice doesn't make it free will, the choice was already going to turn out like that, how can it of been done by your own free will when it was already going to be like that, it's a much free will as me holding a gun to your face and telling you to pick option A, your really not left with much of an option. It's probably not the best example, because you could go against the guy with the gun, but in the case with god it's taken even further, you simply can't go against the predetermined event.

[Imperator Romani]

Making a choice of your own choosing isn't free will?

It's not predetermined man, it still has to happen, but it will happen and he knows what will happen.

God isn't holding a gun to your face(making you choose anything).

There is no time outside this existence. So, take that and apply it to after death, or this existence. God knows if you are there or not. He knows what you have chosen. You still thought about what to choose, and you picked what you thought was the best decision.

[The Count(er)]

It's not predetermined man, it still has to happen, but it will happen and he knows what will happen.

Exactly it still has to happen, but it hasn't happened yet, the first condition for being predetermined, the second being that the result is already known, god knows the result, this result is already determined before we even knew there was a result to choose. Predetermined.

Making a choice of your own choosing isn't free will?



God isn't holding a gun to your face(making you choose anything).

There is no time outside this existence. So, take that and apply it to after death, or this existence. God knows if you are there or not. He knows what you have chosen. You still thought about what to choose, and you picked what you thought was the best decision.

Well if it's already been thought about then, what's going to happen in the next 5 seconds has already been thought, and will turn out exactly like god knows it would, the result has, by our perspective, already been figured out before it's actually happened, what ever free will involved, has already gotten involved, and we're just seeing what's happens after the play button's been pressed.

[Hippolord]

To be perfect, there cannot be free will, unless we change what it is to be perfect.

The christian god accepts free will, to a certain extent, he allows you to have free will but he does not really promote it. He tells you there are consequences for certain actions, which will in some cases lead certain people away from said actions. Wether that is free will or not is debatable.

In the end, does it really matter? You still do whatever you want on a day to day basis, no giant hand comes down anad makes you do something else. And if it does, then you never notice it anyway, so it doesn't really change your life.

Personally i don't think we have free will, but thats a whole different story.

[Imperator Romani]

No, we are using two different uses of predetermined. He hasn't determined what you will do is what I am saying.

Exactly. You still made your decisions. You still made your own choices. You still thought about what to and what not to do. You have complete free reign over your choices. This is free will. Just because He knows what you pick in the end doesn't mean that you didn't have free will.