A Suggestion For A Mod, Perhaps.

[UnfortunateHam]

I have been playing s the Greek City-States recently in RTR when I came upon a realization: As far as I know, there was never a "confederation" of city-states except for the Delian League and the Spartan alliance, and as far as I know, Athens and Sparta were never in an alliance together after the Persian wars or the Pelopennesion War. And I don't recall Epirus having an alliance with Sparta or Athens either.

My knowledge of Ancient History isn't as advanced as many of yours, I'm sure, so you may want to enlighten me; but, on to what I have to say...

If what I said above is true, then why would one faction control the kingdom of Epirus and Sparta and Athens? Not to mention Kydonia, Byzantion, etc. To make it more realistic, shoudn't there be different factions for them? Or has somebody already done this?

[Ichon]

I believe it is supposed to represent Hellenistic world which while was not a single league often perceived and acted against threats simultaneously or with limited co-operation. Not always of course but also it was not cut throat rivals either as there was a long history of shared culture of independent city states. I'd prefer simply very strong rebel garrisons with maybe a nearby rebel army by the stronger cities. That free up for another faction as well because representing all the Greek cities as a separate faction does not make sense. Epirus and Macedonia only ones in this period and Epirus really only had very brief expansionary push which might as well be modeled by a few large rebel army stacks in southern Italy at the start of game, maybe one in range of Corfinium so first Roman army to siege there will encounter it. Extended realism mod adds Epirus and nerf Macedonia a bit but also add land bridges in some weird places and Greek Cities remain as well.

Would require Macedonia or whichever faction takes over Greece to fight some larger Sieges as well so that low garrisoned city can't be snuck into. Greek City AI because it border so many factions usually get into many wars which weaken it and make it an easy conquest. When controlled by AI. Someone wanting to unify Greece should be able to mod in 1 faction to a single city and this would be more realistic anyway to start with a very small power base.

[Maurits]

As far as I know it's impossible to make every Greek city a faction. When you want to do that, you'll face the problem of a lack of faction slots. Also, I think you should really try Exrm, for at this very moment I believe it to be the best full conversion of RTW (of course working with platinum).

Epirus is represented as a new faction there, besides Macedonia and the Greek City-States. I think the gameplay is just good. Better than in vanilla or RTRPE. You should really try!

[Clearchus of Sparta]

The Aetolian League was a confederation of states in ancient Greece centered on the cities of Aetolia in central Greece. Alternatively termed the Aitolian League, it was established in 370 BC in opposition to Macedon and the Achaean League. It occupied Delphi from 290 BC and gained territory steadily until, by the end of the 3rd century BC, it controlled the whole of central Greece outside Attica. At its height, the league's territory included Locris, Malis, Dolopes, part of Thessaly, Phocis, and Acarnania. In the latter part of its power, certain Mediterranean city-states joined the Aitolian League such as Kydonia on Crete.

The Achaean League (Greek: Ἀχαϊκὴ Συμμαχία or Ἀχαϊκὴ Συμπολιτεία) was a confederation of Greek city states in Achaea, a territory on the northern coast of the Peloponnese. An initial confederation existed during the 5th through the 4th century BC.

The Achaean League was reformed early in the 3rd century BC, and soon expanded beyond its Achaean heartland. It was first joined by the city of Sicyon, which provided it with its first great leader, Aratus of Sicyon. The League soon grew to control much of the Peloponnesus, considerably weakening the Macedonian hold on the area, but soon it ran into difficulties with the revived Sparta of Cleomenes III. Aratus was forced to call in the aid of the Macedonian King, Antigonus Doson, to defeat Cleomenes in Sellasia. Antigonus re-established Macedonian control over much of the region.
In 220 BC, the Achaean League entered into a war against the Aetolian League, which was called "the second Allied War". The young king of Macedon Philip V sided with the Achaeans and called for a Panhellenic conference in Corinth, where the Aetolian aggression was condemned.

Hope this helps

[Ichon]

Hope this helps

I thought that both those leagues were relatively concerned with defense and never advanced outside the Greek areas? So Syracuse definitely not a member or did it side with one of those leagues at some point? Also these leagues grew in opposition and it seems odd to include them as a single faction.

[florin80]

As far as I know, there was never a "confederation" of city-states except for the Delian League and the Spartan alliance, and as far as I know, Athens and Sparta were never in an alliance together after the Persian wars or the Pelopennesion War.

The Chremonidean War, albeit a short lived alliance. That`s besides what Clearchus added already.

I thought that both those leagues were relatively concerned with defense and never advanced outside the Greek areas?

Many things never happened, but could have happened if...

Also these leagues grew in opposition and it seems odd to include them as a single faction.

It`s how things were portrayed in RTR 6 about 4 years ago. Not far from the vanilla line we could say in retrospect. There`s really no point in either asking it to be changed in rtr 6 (because rtr 6 has already ended with gold/platinum years ago) or thinking it reflects the current rtr thinking. We`ll probably have to see rtr 7 released first before knowing better, but so far its greeks have been presented as a combination of mini-faction areas and a league as a proper faction(the achaeans the last time I`ve checked).

[UnfortunateHam]

Ahhhhhhhh. I just thought it would be cool if I could start out as Sparta or Athens. I wasn't saying Kydonia, Byzantion, etc. should all be independent factions. Kydonia and Byzantion could be rebels, for example. I just didn't understand how so many Greek City-states would align into a single faction, especially Epirus. I'll try Extended Realism sometime, then.

I'd just like to play as Athens or Sparta. I'm not much of a modder, though; I've only been slowly learning how to mod
Civilization IV the past few weeks.

[Clearchus of Sparta]

Not to worry. Greek cities were really at the peak of their power and influence during the classical period which is a slightly earlier timeframe than RTR covers.

I know the Hedgemonia mod was going to cover that period but I dont know how it is progressing.

iirc Spartan and Athenian armies could field somewhere between 20,000 to 30,000 soldiers. By the time of our mod, rome was regularly fielding 60,000 men.

If you find a good classical period mod, perhaps you could come back and recomend it

[sumaznguy]

They are making one for M2TW.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=753

[Pat89]

You can't have those factions all in the game at the same time, however you can give each one its own campaign...

[UnfortunateHam]

You can't have those factions all in the game at the same time, however you can give each one its own campaign...

Yes. . . YES, EXACTLY.

[Caligula Caesar]

There are quite a few things lacking in RTR 6. For instance, Persia seems to have been made in an effort to re-enact the making or vanilla RTR: Throw in a few regions, make a map that is completely wrong (at least vanilla got the geography relatively correct!) and then add a few units. Persia was a myriad of peoples. To name a few, there were the Cappadocians, the (Caucasian) Iberians, the Hyrcanians, the Bactrians, the Sogdians, the Arachosians, the Babylonians and the Persians. However, RTR just has four generalised Persian units. Also, there are way too few regions. Obviously, there couldn't be as great a region density as in, say, Asia Minor, but they could at least have represented each Satrapy (properly: Gedrosia is on the wrong side of the Indus!). I have recently been playing EB, and to be honest, their Persia is much better. They have many more units and more regions, even if I disagree with some of the cities they used.

I don't intend to start a discussion on which mod is better, I just felt like mentioning this. BTW, does the VII team have plans to improve Persia when they get about doing the Grand Campaign?

[AqD]

There are quite a few things lacking in RTR 6. For instance, Persia seems to have been made in an effort to re-enact the making or vanilla RTR: Throw in a few regions, make a map that is completely wrong (at least vanilla got the geography relatively correct!) and then add a few units. Persia was a myriad of peoples. To name a few, there were the Cappadocians, the (Caucasian) Iberians, the Hyrcanians, the Bactrians, the Sogdians, the Arachosians, the Babylonians and the Persians. However, RTR just has four generalised Persian units. Also, there are way too few regions. Obviously, there couldn't be as great a region density as in, say, Asia Minor, but they could at least have represented each Satrapy (properly: Gedrosia is on the wrong side of the Indus!). I have recently been playing EB, and to be honest, their Persia is much better. They have many more units and more regions, even if I disagree with some of the cities they used.

or you could try persia in my mod! I haven't corrected the regions though, since RTR VII will probably have a map more or less similar to EB's, from what I have been in old RTR 7 previews..

[Pat89]

No-one except Muizer knows what the RTR VII GC map looks like. He is creating an entirely new map... And if Muizer creates a map, you can be sure that a more realistic map is not possible. All you can discuss about then is which settlements should be or should not be present on the map. But if there's a settlement, then it's in the right place.

@ Caligula,
It is not a matter of improving Persia... We don't use any old RTR/RTW whatever map material as base. Muizer always does everything from scrach, based on real maps... So don't worry... Persia will be properly represented in RTR VII

[Caligula Caesar]

Sounds good., but I suppose it is still a long way off. Since FOE is now in the Beta-Testing stage, and there isn't really any more work some people have to do (for instance, mappers and skinners), is any work being done on GC?

Edit: Aqd, I would try your mod (and probably will at some point), but I don't have Alexander. I did correct the map as far as I could for my mod, except for the fact that the bottom tip of the Caspian Sea should be on the same latitude as the bottom of Asia Minor, not the top. Unfortunately, I keep getting a CTD. Admittedly, I haven't tried very hard to get rid of it, but I will!

[Muizer]

Sounds good., but I suppose it is still a long way off. Since FOE is now in the Beta-Testing stage, and there isn't really any more work some people have to do (for instance, mappers and skinners), is any work being done on GC?

FoE and the GC aren't really separate projects. A large share of FoE will make it into the GC. Conversely, elements developed after the release if FoE for the GC can, and probably will, be used to update FoE.