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Thread: Why Fears Of A Muslim Takeover Are All Wrong : The Lie of "Eurabia"

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    Default Why Fears Of A Muslim Takeover Are All Wrong : The Lie of "Eurabia"

    Why Fears Of A Muslim Takeover Are All Wrong

    Analyzing the forecasts of an emerging 'Eurabia,' hostile to America and western values.


    http://www.newsweek.com/id/206230

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    To listen to Europe's far right, it would be easy to conclude that the continent is poised for another round of bitter conflict with a centuries-old adversary. "The first Islamic invasion of Europe was stopped at [the battle of] Poitiers in 732. The second was halted at the gates of Vienna in 1683. Now we have to stop the current stealth invasion," argues Geert Wilders, the leader of the Dutch Party for Freedom, which claims that Islamic doctrine encourages terrorism.


    It's rabble-rousing stuff. But underlying Wilders's polemic is an argument shared by many more mainstream right-leaning thinkers on both sides of the Atlantic. Europe, its will sapped by secularism and anything-goes tolerance, has allowed decades of mass immigration without serious challenge. Too feeble to defend their own values, governments have been ready to appease Muslim opinion and must expect the worst. The argument has been gaining ground for some time—fed by alarmist and highly speculative projections from writers like the Canadian Mark Steyn, author of the bestselling America Alone—that immigration and high birthrates could mean that Muslims will make up 40 percent of Europe's population by 2025. Similar and very public warnings have come from American diplomat Timothy Savage, who claimed that forecasts of a Muslim majority in Western Europe by midcentury "may not be far off the mark" if present trends continue, which would heighten the risk of conflict. The British historian Niall Ferguson has written that "a youthful Muslim society to the south and east of the Mediterranean is poised to colonize—the term is not too strong—a sene-scent Europe." And the American journalist Christopher Caldwell forecasts that an "anchored" and "confident" Islam looks likely to impose its will on an "insecure" and "relativistic" European culture. The gloomiest commentators, including Steyn and the conservative Ameri-can writer Tony Blankley, talk of an emerging "Eurabia" hostile to American interests and in thrall to Islam.
    These warnings chime with public fears that Europe has already become an incubator for worldwide terrorism. After all, the September 11 hijackers plotted in Germany, and homegrown terrorists were involved in the Madrid and London attacks. Concern is growing that a swelling immigrant population resistant to assimilation or integration will steal jobs and strain public services. Last year a Pew poll found that about half of respondents in Spain and Germany held negative views of Muslims. In Spain the figure had climbed 15 points, to 52 percent, since 2004. In the June elections to the European Parliament, Wilders's party won 17 percent of the national vote in the Netherlands. The anti-immigrant British National Party, which warned of the "creeping Islamification" of British society, won its first two seats. In Austria the right-wing Freedom Party almost doubled its share of the vote, at 13 percent.


    Alert to the public mood, European governments, which are now almost entirely center-right, have been slamming doors to further immigration from Muslim countries and elsewhere, and have reinforced the message that Muslim Turkey is not welcome in the European Union. Italy is now in the process of approving a bill that will jail landlords for leasing properties to undocumented immigrants. Last month French President Nicolas Sarkozy declared the burqa to be "a sign of subservience" that "would not be welcome on the territory of the French Republic."


    But all this obscures a simple fact: the rise of a Eurabia is predicated on limited and dubious evidence. A much-cited 2004 study from the U.S. National Intelligence Council outlines a number of possible scenarios. Its most aggressive is that the number of Muslims in Europe could increase from roughly 20 million today—about 5 percent of the population—to 38 million by 2025. But that projection turns out to be attributed to "diplomatic and media reporting as well as government, academic, and other sources." In other words, it's all speculation based on speculation—and even if it's accurate, it would still mean the number of Muslims will represent just 8 percent of the European population, estimated by the EU to be 470 million in 2025. Indeed, if there is a surge ahead, its scale looks overstated. "There is a quite deliberate exaggeration, as has often been pointed out—but the figures are still being cited," says Jytte Klausen, an authority on Islam in Europe at Boston's Brandeis University.


    Coming up with a reasonable estimate for the percentage of Muslims now living in Europe, let alone making projections for the future, is a virtually impossible task. The number of illegal immigrants is unknown and, in a sign of the sensitivity of the issue, many countries including France and Germany do not even tally census data on the religion of legal residents. It is true that the Muslim minority is destined to grow steadily in Europe, especially given the youthful profile of today's immigrants. Fertility rates remain higher among Muslim immigrants than among other Europeans, and Muslims may continue to arrive in Europe in large numbers. But the alarmists assume that past patterns are sure to hold. "The worst of the scaremongering is based on the assumption that current behavior will continue," says Grace Davie, an expert on Europe and Islam at the University of Exeter in Britain.


    For the number of Muslims to outnumber non-Muslims by midcentury, it would require either breeding on a scale rarely seen in history or for immigration to continue at a pace that's now politically unacceptable. More likely, new controls will slow Muslim immigration. The birthrate for Muslim immigrants is also likely to continue to decline, as it has tended to do, with greater affluence and better health care. There is no Europewide data available, but one study says fertility rates among Turkish-born women in the Netherlands fell from 3.2 in 1990 to 1.9 in 2005, barely above the figure for native-born Dutch. Over the same period, the equivalent figure for Moroccan-born women in the Netherlands dropped from 4.9 to 2.9. Also, fertility rates are edging upward in some Northern European countries, which would offset some of the Muslim growth. Bottom line: given the number of variables, demographers are loath to make predictions about the number of Muslims in Europe in the years to come. "You would almost have to make it up," says Carl Haub, the senior demographer at the Population Reference Bureau in Washington. And the idea of a Muslim majority any time soon? "Absolutely absurd."


    Moreover, the myth of Eurabia implies the existence of a united Islam, a bloc capable of collective and potentially dangerous action. The truth is that there are no powerful Muslim political movements in Europe, either continentwide or at the national level, and the divisions that separate Muslims worldwide, most obviously between Sunnis and Shiites, are apparent in Europe as well. Each major nation in Europe has drawn Muslim immigrants from distinct regions of the Islamic world, often former colonies, with different traditions and outlooks. A British Muslim from Pakistan would struggle to communicate with a French Muslim from Algeria. A second-generation Muslim from Turkey living in Germany will have little in common with a newly arrived Moroccan across the border in Belgium. Sharp differences exist even within national frontiers. In Germany, more than one in 10 Muslims are Alawites, who aren't even recognized as coreligionists by the more orthodox.


    In areas of personal morality, attitudes vary markedly, too. One recent Gallup poll found that more than 30 percent of French Muslims were ready to accept homosexuality, compared with zero in Britain. Almost half of French Muslims believed sex between unmarried people was morally acceptable, compared with 27 percent of German Muslims. And violent zealotry is for the tiny minority: polls repeatedly reaffirm that Muslims overwhelmingly disapprove of terrorism. In some countries, the mood is broadly secular. "The majority of Muslims in France are, in fact, decoupled from their religion. They just blend into an amorphous mass of brown or black people," says Ali Allawi, the former Iraqi defense minister and author of the The Crisis of Islamic Civilization. Jochen Hippler, a German political scientist at the University of Duisburg-Essen, says he has had young Turks come up to him to ask what Islam is all about. "They have lost any connection with the religion of their parents and grandparents," he says. A recent government survey showed that 40 percent of Iranians living in Germany identified themselves as having no religion, as did 23 percent of North Africans. In the Netherlands, the proportion of Muslims who regularly attend the mosque—27 percent—is lower than the proportion of Protestants who go to church.


    For that matter, there's little evidence that Muslims themselves see any contradiction between allegiance to the state and their religious faith. An overwhelming majority of Muslims in France and Germany told Gallup's pollsters that they believed Muslims were loyal to their country. British and German Muslims were more likely than their countrymen to say they were confident of the judicial system and financial institutions and the honesty of elections. It seems that if Europe is in the throes of revolution, many of the supposed combatants appear strangely content with the established order.


    Personally, I think the author does a great job of revealing the stupidity behind the idea of "eurabia", and how europe will be "conquered" by the muslim "horde".

    Any Thoughts?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Why Fears Of A Muslim Takeover Are All Wrong : The Lie of "Eurabia"

    "They'll still find a way."


  3. #3
    C-Rob's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Why Fears Of A Muslim Takeover Are All Wrong : The Lie of "Eurabia"

    hey just blend into an amorphous mass of brown or black people,
    so they're a school of fish?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Why Fears Of A Muslim Takeover Are All Wrong : The Lie of "Eurabia"

    Good article! Shows what Hypocrites the west is when coming to other lands but when it happens to them they cry like a baby!

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    Hub'ite's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Why Fears Of A Muslim Takeover Are All Wrong : The Lie of "Eurabia"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Shahanshah of Pakistan View Post
    Good article! Shows what Hypocrites the west is when coming to other lands but when it happens to them they cry like a baby!
    So I guess you're back.

    Too long won't read. Just saw that part about how muslim immigration at it's current pace won't continue. When anytime I hear any talk about placing restrictions on immigration of any kind it's pretty much always met with, "Gasp! You racist white trash trailer park redneck!"
    This.

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    Default Re: Why Fears Of A Muslim Takeover Are All Wrong : The Lie of "Eurabia"

    Its a very good article. It shows the issues with the vision of Eurabia I've seen touted by some people.

    The Muslim population will not become 40% of Europe in the next half century - there is no evidence to suggest this, unless you take current stats and extend it into the future for 40 years, which creates very inaccurate results with anything. Muslims which move to western nations see declining birth rates, as it slowly falls in line with the native population. And there isn't a rule that Muslims don't integrate or have this universal rule of intolerance. Depending on the region, they may be more pro-gay rights than the native population, and usage of the official language may be higher than for immigrants from China, for example.

    Muslims will not become a majority, or even a large minority any time soon. Eurabia is a scare tactic based on bad math and a lack of understanding of social sciences.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Why Fears Of A Muslim Takeover Are All Wrong : The Lie of "Eurabia"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Shahanshah of Pakistan View Post
    Good article! Shows what Hypocrites the west is when coming to other lands but when it happens to them they cry like a baby!
    its a few vs hundreds


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    Default Re: Why Fears Of A Muslim Takeover Are All Wrong : The Lie of "Eurabia"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Shahanshah of Pakistan View Post
    Good article! Shows what Hypocrites the west is when coming to other lands but when it happens to them they cry like a baby!
    Is there a huge pilgrimage of the "West" going anywhere that I haven't heard about?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Why Fears Of A Muslim Takeover Are All Wrong : The Lie of "Eurabia"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Shahanshah of Pakistan View Post
    Good article! Shows what Hypocrites the west is when coming to other lands but when it happens to them they cry like a baby!
    Not you again.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkProphet View Post
    Its a very good article. It shows the issues with the vision of Eurabia I've seen touted by some people.

    The Muslim population will not become 40% of Europe in the next half century - there is no evidence to suggest this, unless you take current stats and extend it into the future for 40 years, which creates very inaccurate results with anything. Muslims which move to western nations see declining birth rates, as it slowly falls in line with the native population. And there isn't a rule that Muslims don't integrate or have this universal rule of intolerance. Depending on the region, they may be more pro-gay rights than the native population, and usage of the official language may be higher than for immigrants from China, for example.

    Muslims will not become a majority, or even a large minority any time soon. Eurabia is a scare tactic based on bad math and a lack of understanding of social sciences.
    The problem with what you're saying is that Eurabia forecasters aren't taking present statistics and extrapolating them. They're looking at the current birthrates of Muslims vs. native Westerners, and analyzing what the next generation will look like. If the average European woman has less than 2 children in her lifetime, and the average Muslim woman in Europe has 5 or more, it shouldn't be hard to guess that the next generation will be majority Muslim, or at least that there will be a significant plurality of Muslims. And they don't have to be in the majority to have major influence.
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    Default Re: Why Fears Of A Muslim Takeover Are All Wrong : The Lie of "Eurabia"

    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion View Post
    Not you again.



    The problem with what you're saying is that Eurabia forecasters aren't taking present statistics and extrapolating them. They're looking at the current birthrates of Muslims vs. native Westerners, and analyzing what the next generation will look like. If the average European woman has less than 2 children in her lifetime, and the average Muslim woman in Europe has 5 or more, it shouldn't be hard to guess that the next generation will be majority Muslim, or at least that there will be a significant plurality of Muslims. And they don't have to be in the majority to have major influence.
    Yeah, but the Muslim birthrate suddenly dropped around anyone elses and remained stable.

    Now, what does that tell us?
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

  11. #11

    Default Re: Why Fears Of A Muslim Takeover Are All Wrong : The Lie of "Eurabia"

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn777 View Post
    Yeah, but the Muslim birthrate suddenly dropped around anyone elses and remained stable.

    Now, what does that tell us?
    I have never heard that, but even if it were true, the damage is done. It only takes one generation of low native birthrates and high immigrant birthrates to change things permanently. What happens when all those Muslim babies grow up to replace the babies native Europeans didn't bother having?
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    Default Re: Why Fears Of A Muslim Takeover Are All Wrong : The Lie of "Eurabia"

    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion View Post
    I have never heard that, but even if it were true, the damage is done. It only takes one generation of low native birthrates and high immigrant birthrates to change things permanently. What happens when all those Muslim babies grow up to replace the babies native Europeans didn't bother having?

    True, but look at it's historical presidents. People said the same things about the Irish, the Chinese and east Europeans in the states, and although it is undeniable they have altered our culture, have they really altered our culture for the worst? I mean St. Paddy's day and Chinese food are sacred American traditions. (really)

    Besides, although one can always say that Muslims are just different (Violent and all that), the complex of events in WWI, WWII, the rise of communism and the Holocaust, far outstrip all the violence in the Mideast for the past 1000 years. And yet, those central and eastern Europeans in America do just fine. I myself am half polish, and yet.... no genocide.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Why Fears Of A Muslim Takeover Are All Wrong : The Lie of "Eurabia"

    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion View Post
    I have never heard that, but even if it were true, the damage is done. It only takes one generation of low native birthrates and high immigrant birthrates to change things permanently. What happens when all those Muslim babies grow up to replace the babies native Europeans didn't bother having?
    The simple mathematics is that because there are significantly more European families to start with, each family could average two children and still be the majority in the future. There is also the likely possibility that a good portion of Muslim children would grow up to be Westernized. This can happen quickly as many children of immigrants adapt quickly.

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    Default Re: Why Fears Of A Muslim Takeover Are All Wrong : The Lie of "Eurabia"

    Europeans will never stop eating pork.

    No other proof needed to debunk Eurabia
    Some day I'll actually write all the reviews I keep promising...

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    Default Re: Why Fears Of A Muslim Takeover Are All Wrong : The Lie of "Eurabia"

    Too long won't read. Just saw that part about how muslim immigration at it's current pace won't continue. When anytime I hear any talk about placing restrictions on immigration of any kind it's pretty much always met with, "Gasp! You racist white trash trailer park redneck!"
    I'm cold, and there are wolves after me.

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    Default Re: Why Fears Of A Muslim Takeover Are All Wrong : The Lie of "Eurabia"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulyaoth View Post
    Too long won't read. Just saw that part about how muslim immigration at it's current pace won't continue. When anytime I hear any talk about placing restrictions on immigration of any kind it's pretty much always met with, "Gasp! You racist white trash trailer park redneck!"
    Try reading it.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Why Fears Of A Muslim Takeover Are All Wrong : The Lie of "Eurabia"

    Eurabia is just something created by racists and their political parties.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Why Fears Of A Muslim Takeover Are All Wrong : The Lie of "Eurabia"

    The west changed in 40years, so can they


  19. #19

    Default Re: Why Fears Of A Muslim Takeover Are All Wrong : The Lie of "Eurabia"

    its already started http://www.liberal.ca/en/team/mp/574...ax-singh-malhi how the that dude got elected ?? muslim vote for sure ...


    Wen i see my people making 1 or 2 children max and wen i saw 2 muslim women whit 4 kid each in pushchair i have no choice to start thinking its true ...

    After watching this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU on this forum a while ago i started thinking and watching think from another eye ...
    Last edited by igotballsofsteel; July 12, 2009 at 10:01 PM.

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  20. #20

    Default Re: Why Fears Of A Muslim Takeover Are All Wrong : The Lie of "Eurabia"

    That guy isn't Muslim tho.


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