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Thread: A Bloodied Britannian Field, a debris-strewn Mesopotamian Desert -- the power of late Roman Cavalry in action matched with Sassanid Savaran in battle (results of a multiplayer battle, me versus Julianus Flavius)

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    Default A Bloodied Britannian Field, a debris-strewn Mesopotamian Desert -- the power of late Roman Cavalry in action matched with Sassanid Savaran in battle (results of a multiplayer battle, me versus Julianus Flavius)

    First off, I'd like to say what an amazing battle Julianus Flavius gave me, at least in the first conflict. It's probably the best multiplayer match I've had to date.

    However, I felt I had to create a thread to address the gigantic disparity in the two battles we fought. In both instances, cavalry allowed me first to outmaneuver, and then to destroy Julianus Flavius's tight infantry formations. The prime difference lies in the time it took and casualties sustained from one battle to the next.

    I'll detail both battles in as long-winded a way as possible to make up for my lack of screenshots.

    In the first conflict, we both commanded Roman armies identical in capability and combined-arms force. Julianus chose to align himself with the Pagan Julian, his namesake; I fought for a local Britannic usurper who objected to this resurgence of an anachronistic religion.

    Motives aside, our armies were relatively similar in quality, if not in composition. I fielded eight units of heavy infantry. Six of these were the famed domesticorum pedites, on loan from Constantinople. The two remaining were Britannic auxilia palantinae.

    My foot-missile complement was composed of four sagittarii units attached to the Roman field army, which is to say comitatenses.

    For cavalry, I utilized two of the domesticorum equitum, who matched on mounts the capabilities of their brothers on foot. I also fielded two extremely heavily armored cataphractii turmae, who were to prove instrumental in battle.

    My mounted archer complement held four equites sagittarii.

    My army was positioned like so:


    ****

    ( +------+ (
    ( #^ ^# (


    - = Domesticorum Pedites
    + =Auxilia palantinae
    * =Sagittarii
    ^ =Domesticorum Equitum
    # =Cataphracts
    ( =Horse Archers


    J.F. commanded considerably more heavy infantry, which he had ordered in a shield-wall formation in front of which he placed lanciarii units (on his left) and slingers (on his right). On each flank he had two auxilary Sarmatian cataphract turmae, every bit a match for my Roman cataphracts. Behind his line stood three units of archers, slightly inferior to my own.

    I took the offensive, ordering my flanking horse archers to engage his funditores and lanciarii, respectively, from a distance. The funditores gave as good as they got; the lanciarii were forced to take my withering missile fire.

    However, the power of the sling soon began to tell on my left. I ordered in two units of foot-archers to make up the difference.

    Julianus realized that I would soon destroy his slinger contingents if he did not act. His Sarmatians kicked their heavy mounts into motion, laboriously charging towards my seemingly undefended foot archers.

    Luckily, I had hidden my left-flank complement of heavy cavalry within the ranks of my horse archers. While the domesticorum equitum charged forth to meet his cavalry, my cataphracts circled around and then viciously attacked the flank of the milling Sarmatians. The slaughter went on for a few more seconds before the tired enemy cavalry gave in and routed.

    My other foot-archers had also reached Julianus's line, and had begun to assail his serried ranks of legionaries (though their heavy armor negated most of the missiles). Julianus again employed his mighty Sarmatians; this time, his cataphracts caught and annihilated a foot-archer unit before my numerically superior cavalry arrived to destroy his warriors once more.

    While I had proved myself supreme in the preliminary cavalry skirmish, Julianus's mighty Roman infantry were vastly superior in numbers to my stubby, thin line of infantry. Realizing this, J.F. ordered his mass of legionaries forward at a hearty trot.

    Due to my inattention and foolishness, his infantry were able to attack and overcome another foot-archer unit almost completely before I was able to withdraw it to the safety of my own lines. Seeing that the remaining archers that had not been destroyed were spent of ammunition, I had them retreat to copses of woods to ambush Julianus's warriors later.

    The infantry of the enemy charged ferociously into my battle-line; just before the impact, my men drew their lethal javelins and threw. Men toppled, but the pagan warriors came on still.

    The crash of flesh and steel was almost palpable. His men and mine traded blows, neither superior to the other. However, while my men fought in a traditional, loose block, Julianus's men formed that shield-wall that delivered such a stunning victory at Argentoratum.

    His blocks of men cut into my center and left flank viciously; on the right, my men surrounded and bogged down his comparatively outnumbered men (he prevailed so well on the center and right because he threw most of his men there). While this was occuring, my intrepid cavalry were dealing wonderfully with Julianus's archer units.

    Seeing that the tight blocks of Julianus were prevailing, I ordered my weak but numerous horse archers to charge into the backs of the enemy; sadly, this had little effect. The lightly armored archers were no match for the trained legionaries of Rome.

    More effective were the heavy cavalry remaining after the initial skirmish and subsequent mop-up. One of my cataphract regiments held a part of the battle-line for nearly three minutes before a withdrawal was necessary.

    And so the battle ground on, a bloody affair that killed yet more of my men than it did of his. The conflict seemed to be even until the pagan general was slain by a brave Briton's spear. All of a sudden, the melee on the right destabilized as his men began to rout. The gigantic increase in my disposable manpower allowed me to surround and hack down his still-strong center, which in turn routed the Roman right.

    Despite yet another ambush in which a unit of mattiacii seniores decimated one of my archer units with a flurry of thrown fransiscas, my legions proved their worth and scored a great victory over the pagan Julian.


    The end result was the loss of all but 300 of Julianus's men; I was left with nearly 1800, with over half my army dead on the bloody Britannic fields.

    The next battle was no such grand affair; I was the Sassanids, he the Romans once again. I had formed a shieldwall of Sassanid spearmen with foot-archers in the front and numerous horse-archers on the flanks.

    My abundant heavy cavalry stood behind the horse archers, with a reserve unit held directly behind the shield-wall.

    This battle was a massacre. My horse archers and his traded blows; mine came off superior, inevitably. The cheapness of Sassanid cavalry allowed me to upgrade my army to the point where most of my soldiers were far superior to the Roman legions.

    He charged forward his domesticorum pedites (the mainstay of his army) preceded by skirmishing foedorati. The javelins of the Germans wreaked havoc among my spearmen, but they were met in kind by a hailstorm of arrows that killed and routed nearly every barbarian.

    The Roman charge was lethal at first, but his men soon encountered the problem mine had in the first battle: shieldwalls against undisciplined mobs. His men made little progress.

    My overpowered Sassanid cavalry soon dealt with their paltry Roman counterparts, and turned upon the infantry battling for survival with a fury.

    The charge broke nearly every Roman soldier; the battle after that was nothing but a chase.

    Here, I lost barely 400 men; Julianus lost over 2800.

    I feel as though the cheap Sassanid cavalry are obscenely overpowered; it will be difficult indeed for the Romans to score a victory in the Iron Desert next week. I destroyed Julianus as if his elite infantry were nothing.


    Well, I hope you enjoyed my account, and that the Sassanid problem will be addressed...
    Last edited by Antiochos VII Sidetes; July 12, 2009 at 12:55 AM.

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  2. #2
    Gen.jamesWolfe's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: A Bloodied Britannian Field, a debris-strewn Mesopotamian Desert -- the power of late Roman Cavalry in action matched with Sassanid Savaran in battle (results of a multiplayer battle, me versus Julianus Flavius)

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiochos VII Sidetes View Post

    I feel as though the cheap Sassanid cavalry are obscenely overpowered; it will be difficult indeed for the Romans to score a victory in the Iron Desert next week. I destroyed Julianus as if his elite infantry were nothing.

    what do you expect? the sassanian warrior is supposedly worth 3 roman or greek ones, or 1.5 arabs*, and has the added advantage of a feudal system-the men provide most of their stuff, not you the shah. that's more a 6th century thing, giving the savaran mostly goverment stuff. my regular dawsar cavalry are comaratively speaking more expensive, and they don't deliver that kind of punch-at least not for sustained timeperiods.

    I guess its a triumph of libertarianism over liberal and statist government

    *or 1.3 berbers, or 2 germans, or 1.2 celts (lets face it, those naked people skew the results).
    I haz a culler!! (really, who gives a darn? its totally meaningless, and it doesn't really accurately reflect who I am)


  3. #3
    julianus heraclius's Avatar The Philosopher King
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    Default Re: A Bloodied Britannian Field, a debris-strewn Mesopotamian Desert -- the power of late Roman Cavalry in action matched with Sassanid Savaran in battle (results of a multiplayer battle, me versus Julianus Flavius)

    Great description Antiochos VII Sidetes. Yes, Sassanid cavalry is tough, though not as tough as it was in IBV7.03. If you currently look at the Asawira Cavalry stats compared with say roman equites sagitarii:

    Asawira:stat_pri 6, 24, arrow, 187.5, 40, missile, archery, piercing, none, 25, 1
    stat_mental 22, impetuous,untrained
    stat_cost 1, 200, 100, 30, 50, 200

    equites sagittarii:stat_pri 5, 7, arrow, 162.5, 35, missile, archery, piercing, none, 25, 1
    stat_mental 8, normal, trained
    stat_cost 1, 880, 390, 70, 100, 550

    vexillationes sagittarii:stat_pri 6, 9, arrow, 172.5, 40, missile, archery, piercing, none, 25, 1
    stat_mental 9, normal, trained
    stat_cost 3, 1148,490, 70, 110, 680

    equites parthii:stat_pri 6, 8, arrow, 182.5, 40, missile, archery, piercing, none, 25, 1
    stat_mental 8, normal, trained
    stat_cost 2,912, 414, 70, 100, 570

    The missle factors are similiar, except the Asawira have a higher charge factor as they would shoot then get involved with melee.

    The biggest difference is the cost. Yes the Asawira are very cheap and can be recruited in one turn compared to the roman equites, but as Gen.wolfe stated the Asawira come from a feudal society, so training was cheap.

    I do however notice that the Asawira have a way too high moral. That is an error. They should be much lower than that, say 9 points and not 22!!
    I will fix this for the next patch.

    One thing people should remember is that roman cavalry was usually inferior to sassanid cavalry. The romans strength still lied with its infantry. If a roman player is going to take on the sassanids then you need additional pedites sagitarii and make sure that you close with the sassanids as quickly as possible, and screen your heavy infantry, otherwise you will end up like Crassus at Carrhae which is what this battle sounded like.

    EDIT: I am in the process of reducing both mounted archers ranges and their attack factors for the next patch.

    Cheers
    Last edited by julianus heraclius; July 12, 2009 at 01:34 AM.

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  4. #4
    Julianus Flavius's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: A Bloodied Britannian Field, a debris-strewn Mesopotamian Desert -- the power of late Roman Cavalry in action matched with Sassanid Savaran in battle (results of a multiplayer battle, me versus Julianus Flavius)

    Hello, I happen to have a replay! This is the first battle Antiochos mentions.
    Attachment 47970
    extract contents of folder to your replays folder and play rome and watch the battle, you'll see what Antiochos is referring to. Forgive my slow deployment at the start.
    Last edited by Julianus Flavius; July 12, 2009 at 04:00 AM.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    What have the Romans ever done for us?? apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?
    Some of my favourite quotes:
    "Your god has yet to prove himself more merciful than his predecessors" ~ Hypatia, as represented in the film 'Agora'
    "If you choose to do nothing, they will continue to do this again and again, until there is no-one left in the city, no people for this governement to govern"
    ~ Hypatia, as represented in the film 'Agora'

  5. #5
    julianus heraclius's Avatar The Philosopher King
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    Default Re: A Bloodied Britannian Field, a debris-strewn Mesopotamian Desert -- the power of late Roman Cavalry in action matched with Sassanid Savaran in battle (results of a multiplayer battle, me versus Julianus Flavius)

    Guys, why the fascination with Guard Units??. There was only one equites and pedites each in Rome and Constantinople. I would have thought armies that represented a more "historical" flavour would be in order?

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  6. #6

    Default Re: A Bloodied Britannian Field, a debris-strewn Mesopotamian Desert -- the power of late Roman Cavalry in action matched with Sassanid Savaran in battle (results of a multiplayer battle, me versus Julianus Flavius)

    It was silly battle just for fun. I wasn't exactly bent on recreating anything so much as having an enjoyable battle. Also (in the second battle) we wanted to test if Sassanid cavalry could trump extremely elite Roman infantry.

    But I'm quite glad that the morale of the Sassanids will be reduced; that will help indeed.

    Rest assured that during the Incultum Ferrum my army composition will be somewhat less ridiculous.

    Game of the Fates
    Mod of the week on hold -- I've played nearly every RTW mod out there.
    BOYCOTT THE USE OF SMILEYS! (Okay, just once)
    Antiochos VII...last true scion of the Seleucid dynasty...rest in peace, son of Hellas.
    I've returned--please forgive my long absence.

  7. #7
    SeniorBatavianHorse's Avatar Tribunus Vacans
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    Default Re: A Bloodied Britannian Field, a debris-strewn Mesopotamian Desert -- the power of late Roman Cavalry in action matched with Sassanid Savaran in battle (results of a multiplayer battle, me versus Julianus Flavius)

    Excellent write up and some interesting insights there, Antiochus. I will look forward to viewing the replay later! Perhaps it's worth discussing in a little more detail army composition over in the Online Tournament thread?

  8. #8

    Default Re: A Bloodied Britannian Field, a debris-strewn Mesopotamian Desert -- the power of late Roman Cavalry in action matched with Sassanid Savaran in battle (results of a multiplayer battle, me versus Julianus Flavius)

    Thanks, and that's probably true. Glad you enjoyed it!

    Game of the Fates
    Mod of the week on hold -- I've played nearly every RTW mod out there.
    BOYCOTT THE USE OF SMILEYS! (Okay, just once)
    Antiochos VII...last true scion of the Seleucid dynasty...rest in peace, son of Hellas.
    I've returned--please forgive my long absence.

  9. #9

    Default Re: A Bloodied Britannian Field, a debris-strewn Mesopotamian Desert -- the power of late Roman Cavalry in action matched with Sassanid Savaran in battle (results of a multiplayer battle, me versus Julianus Flavius)

    Update: Julianus and I played another fantastic battle last night, with a more historical bent (no massing of Domesticorum Pedites or any such thing).

    Anyhow, I got lots of screenshots, and I believe Julianus has a replay.

    Game of the Fates
    Mod of the week on hold -- I've played nearly every RTW mod out there.
    BOYCOTT THE USE OF SMILEYS! (Okay, just once)
    Antiochos VII...last true scion of the Seleucid dynasty...rest in peace, son of Hellas.
    I've returned--please forgive my long absence.

  10. #10
    julianus heraclius's Avatar The Philosopher King
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    Default Re: A Bloodied Britannian Field, a debris-strewn Mesopotamian Desert -- the power of late Roman Cavalry in action matched with Sassanid Savaran in battle (results of a multiplayer battle, me versus Julianus Flavius)

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiochos VII Sidetes View Post
    Update: Julianus and I played another fantastic battle last night, with a more historical bent (no massing of Domesticorum Pedites or any such thing).

    Anyhow, I got lots of screenshots, and I believe Julianus has a replay.
    Glad to hear that. I think we should all thank beatoangelico for his hard work with rebalancing attack/defence/moral figures for IJ. Unfortunately he seems to be no longer involved with TWC as I haven't heard from him for quite a while. But the idea was to make battles more intense which I think he has achieved.

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  11. #11
    Julianus Flavius's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: A Bloodied Britannian Field, a debris-strewn Mesopotamian Desert -- the power of late Roman Cavalry in action matched with Sassanid Savaran in battle (results of a multiplayer battle, me versus Julianus Flavius)

    Here's that replay. Attachment 48218

    Enjoy!. Extract contents to your replays folder in IJ
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    What have the Romans ever done for us?? apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?
    Some of my favourite quotes:
    "Your god has yet to prove himself more merciful than his predecessors" ~ Hypatia, as represented in the film 'Agora'
    "If you choose to do nothing, they will continue to do this again and again, until there is no-one left in the city, no people for this governement to govern"
    ~ Hypatia, as represented in the film 'Agora'

  12. #12

    Default Re: A Bloodied Britannian Field, a debris-strewn Mesopotamian Desert -- the power of late Roman Cavalry in action matched with Sassanid Savaran in battle (results of a multiplayer battle, me versus Julianus Flavius)

    Looking forward to checking them out.

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    SeniorBatavianHorse's Avatar Tribunus Vacans
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    Default Re: A Bloodied Britannian Field, a debris-strewn Mesopotamian Desert -- the power of late Roman Cavalry in action matched with Sassanid Savaran in battle (results of a multiplayer battle, me versus Julianus Flavius)

    Same here!

  14. #14

    Default Re: A Bloodied Britannian Field, a debris-strewn Mesopotamian Desert -- the power of late Roman Cavalry in action matched with Sassanid Savaran in battle (results of a multiplayer battle, me versus Julianus Flavius)

    Alright, well I'll have hopefully all of them up sometime tomorrow. My Internet is not cooperating in the uploading process at the moment.

    Game of the Fates
    Mod of the week on hold -- I've played nearly every RTW mod out there.
    BOYCOTT THE USE OF SMILEYS! (Okay, just once)
    Antiochos VII...last true scion of the Seleucid dynasty...rest in peace, son of Hellas.
    I've returned--please forgive my long absence.

  15. #15
    Julianus Flavius's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: A Bloodied Britannian Field, a debris-strewn Mesopotamian Desert -- the power of late Roman Cavalry in action matched with Sassanid Savaran in battle (results of a multiplayer battle, me versus Julianus Flavius)

    the internet does that sometimes! You should see mine on a bad day, slow and error-ridden! it seems to sort itself out eventually though.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    What have the Romans ever done for us?? apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?
    Some of my favourite quotes:
    "Your god has yet to prove himself more merciful than his predecessors" ~ Hypatia, as represented in the film 'Agora'
    "If you choose to do nothing, they will continue to do this again and again, until there is no-one left in the city, no people for this governement to govern"
    ~ Hypatia, as represented in the film 'Agora'

  16. #16

    Default Re: A Bloodied Britannian Field, a debris-strewn Mesopotamian Desert -- the power of late Roman Cavalry in action matched with Sassanid Savaran in battle (results of a multiplayer battle, me versus Julianus Flavius)

    Mine is flickering between quite good speed and not working at all. Most annoying. It makes uploading and downloading files nearly impossible, because of the constant fluctuations.

    Game of the Fates
    Mod of the week on hold -- I've played nearly every RTW mod out there.
    BOYCOTT THE USE OF SMILEYS! (Okay, just once)
    Antiochos VII...last true scion of the Seleucid dynasty...rest in peace, son of Hellas.
    I've returned--please forgive my long absence.

  17. #17
    Julianus Flavius's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: A Bloodied Britannian Field, a debris-strewn Mesopotamian Desert -- the power of late Roman Cavalry in action matched with Sassanid Savaran in battle (results of a multiplayer battle, me versus Julianus Flavius)

    Maybe you should get it looked at? If I remember correctly, you're on a laptop. do you have one of those wireless usb things? if so, try a different port.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    What have the Romans ever done for us?? apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?
    Some of my favourite quotes:
    "Your god has yet to prove himself more merciful than his predecessors" ~ Hypatia, as represented in the film 'Agora'
    "If you choose to do nothing, they will continue to do this again and again, until there is no-one left in the city, no people for this governement to govern"
    ~ Hypatia, as represented in the film 'Agora'

  18. #18

    Default Re: A Bloodied Britannian Field, a debris-strewn Mesopotamian Desert -- the power of late Roman Cavalry in action matched with Sassanid Savaran in battle (results of a multiplayer battle, me versus Julianus Flavius)

    I might do that.

    This nonsense has happened before; usually what is required to fix it is a three-hour call to Sprint, which needless to say I am not anticipating.

    It will have to be done sooner or later, I suppose.

    Game of the Fates
    Mod of the week on hold -- I've played nearly every RTW mod out there.
    BOYCOTT THE USE OF SMILEYS! (Okay, just once)
    Antiochos VII...last true scion of the Seleucid dynasty...rest in peace, son of Hellas.
    I've returned--please forgive my long absence.

  19. #19
    Julianus Flavius's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: A Bloodied Britannian Field, a debris-strewn Mesopotamian Desert -- the power of late Roman Cavalry in action matched with Sassanid Savaran in battle (results of a multiplayer battle, me versus Julianus Flavius)

    preferably before the Iron Desert, I don't think the others would take too kndly to constant opoups during a battle.

    wait, maybe if a popup does happen the persian players would quit if it takes too long to fix itself. about our only chance of victory!
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    What have the Romans ever done for us?? apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?
    Some of my favourite quotes:
    "Your god has yet to prove himself more merciful than his predecessors" ~ Hypatia, as represented in the film 'Agora'
    "If you choose to do nothing, they will continue to do this again and again, until there is no-one left in the city, no people for this governement to govern"
    ~ Hypatia, as represented in the film 'Agora'

  20. #20

    Default Re: A Bloodied Britannian Field, a debris-strewn Mesopotamian Desert -- the power of late Roman Cavalry in action matched with Sassanid Savaran in battle (results of a multiplayer battle, me versus Julianus Flavius)

    Brilliant! Heh...

    Game of the Fates
    Mod of the week on hold -- I've played nearly every RTW mod out there.
    BOYCOTT THE USE OF SMILEYS! (Okay, just once)
    Antiochos VII...last true scion of the Seleucid dynasty...rest in peace, son of Hellas.
    I've returned--please forgive my long absence.

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