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Thread: Are you a Real Libertarian, or a ROYAL Libertarian?

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  1. #1
    Ordinarius
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    Default Are you a Real Libertarian, or a ROYAL Libertarian?

    I am the former.
    http://geolib.pair.com/essays/sulliv.../royallib.html
    The original article has much better composure than my copy and paste job.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    by Dan Sullivan, founder, geolibertarian society, and
    former chair, Libertarian Party of Allegheny County, (Pittsburgh) Pennsylvania

    We call ourselves the "party of principle," and we base property rights on the principle that everyone is entitled to the fruits of his labor. Land, however, is not the fruit of anyone's labor, and our system of land tenure is based not on labor, but on decrees of privilege issued from the state, called titles. In fact, the term "real estate" is Middle English (originally French) for "royal state." The "title" to land is the essence of the title of nobility, and the root of noble privilege.

    The royal free lunch

    When the state granted land titles to a fraction of the population, it gave that fraction devices with which to levy, and pocket, tolls on the fruits of the labor of others. Those without land privileges must either buy or rent those privileges from the people who received the grants or from their assignees. Thus the state titles enable large landowners to collect a transfer payment, or "free lunch" from the actual land users.

    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent.

    --Carlyle


    Tortured rationalizations

    According to royal libertarians, land becomes private property when one mixes one's labor with it. And mixing what is yours with what is not yours in order to own the whole thing is considered great sport. But the notion is filled with problems. How much labor does it take to claim land, and how much land can one claim for that labor? And for how long can one make that claim?

    According to classical liberals, land belonged to the user for as long as the land was being used, and no longer. But according to royal libertarians, land belongs to the first user, forever. So, do the oceans belong to the heirs of the first person to take a fish out or put a boat in? Does someone who plows the same field each year own only one field, while someone who plows a different field each year owns dozens of fields? Should the builder of the first transcontinental railroad own the continent? Shouldn't we at least have to pay a toll to cross the tracks? Are there no common rights to the earth at all? To royal libertarians there are not, but classical liberals recognized that unlimited ownership of land never flowed from use, but from the state:

    A right of property in movable things is admitted before the establishment of government. A separate property in lands not till after that establishment.... He who plants a field keeps possession of it till he has gathered the produce, after which one has as good a right as another to occupy it. Government must be established and laws provided, before lands can be separately appropriated and their owner protected in his possession. Till then the property is in the body of the nation.

    --Thomas Jefferson


    "But we're used to it"

    A favorite excuse of royal libertarians is that the land has been divided up for so long that tracing the rightful owners would be pointless. But there can be no rightful owners if we all have an inalienable right of access to the earth. It is not some ancient injustice we seek to rectify, but an ongoing injustice. The piece of paper granting title might be ancient, but the tribute levied on the landless goes on and on.
    One might as well have accepted monarchy under the excuse that whatever conquest led to monarchy occurred centuries ago, and that tracing the rightful monarchs would be pointless. Indeed, landed aristocracy is the last remnant of monarchy.

    Phony Laissez Faire

    AFTER conquest and confiscation have been effected, and the State set up, its first concern is with the land.... In its capacity as ultimate landlord, the State distributes the land among its beneficiaries on its own terms.
    --Albert J. Nock, Our Enemy the State


    The English free-trader Cobden remarked that "you who free the land will do more for the people than we who have freed trade." Indeed, how can anyone speak of free trade when the trader has to pay tribute to some favored land-entitlement holder in order to do business?

    This imperfect policy of non-intervention, or laissez-faire, led straight to a most hideous and dreadful economic exploitation; starvation wages, slum dwelling, killing hours, pauperism, coffin-ships, child-labour--nothing like it had ever been seen in modern times...People began to say, if this is what State abstention comes to, let us have some State intervention.

    But the state had intervened; that was the whole trouble. The State had established one monopoly--the landlord's monopoly of economic rent--thereby shutting off great hordes of people from free access to the only source of human subsistence, and driving them into factories to work for whatever Mr. Gradgrind and Mr. Bottles chose to give them. The land of England, while by no means nearly all actually occupied, was all legally occupied; and this State-created monopoly enabled landlords to satisfy their needs and desires with little exertion or none, but it also removed the land from competition with industry in the labor market, thus creating a huge, constant and exigent labour-surplus. [Emphasis Nock's]

    --Albert J. Nock, "The Gods' Lookout" February 1934


    State land vs. common land

    The distinction between common property and state property is lost on royal libertarians. Common property is that to which we all have inalienable rights. State property is that which the state actually owns, and can dispose of as it sees fit. For example, a public right of way is literally a right of way. Under principles of common law, nobody, not even the king, could close a traveled road and make it private property. A state maintenance truck, on the other hand, is state property, which can be sold if it no longer suits state purposes.
    The earth, therefore, and all things therein, are the general property of all mankind, from the immediate gift of the Creator.

    --William Blackstone


    It is a royal libertarian notion, and not a classical liberal ideal, to treat land as state property, for if land did not rightfully belong to the state, how could the state have granted it to favored citizens?
    Classical liberals, not royal libertarians, are the ones who deny the state's right to appropriate the earth and allocate it to privileged individuals on favored terms. Classical liberals also who hold the key to abolishing taxation, by suggesting that the community (not the state) charge a user fee to landholders based on the value of the land.

    The ultimate user's fee

    Classical liberals recognized that exclusive access to land, and especially to more land than one was using, was a privilege that should be paid for, thereby eliminating the need for taxes. It is not a fee for using land, but a fee for the state privilege of denying use of that land to everyone else.
    Men did not make the earth.... It is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property.... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds.

    --Tom Paine, "Agrarian Justice," paragraphs 11 to 15


    Another means of silently lessening the inequality of [landed] property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions or property in geometrical progression as they rise.

    --Thomas Jefferson


    Today's land value tax advocates consider graduated land value tax to be unnecessary and problematic, leading to artificial subdivision (and phony subdivision) of land. The point is that Jefferson, to whom libertarians pay homage, considered land monopoly a great evil and land value tax a remedy, as did many other classical liberals:

    Ground rents are a species of revenue which the owner, in many cases, enjoys without any care or attention of his own. Ground rents are, therefore, perhaps a species of revenue which can best bear to have a peculiar tax imposed upon them.

    --Adam Smith


    Landlords grow richer in their sleep, without working, risking, or economizing. The increase in the value of land, arising as it does from the efforts of an entire community, should belong to the community and not to the individual who might hold title.

    --John Stuart Mill


    Two different kinds of indirect taxation

    One of the most perverted twisting of concepts is reflected in what Hamilton called "indirect taxation." To him, and to many royal libertarians, indirect taxation is "hidden" taxation, as a value-added tax or sales tax that is buried in the price of purchased goods. This kind of indirectness is hardly admirable, and is similar to the kind of indirectness involved in chicanery and duplicity. Small wonder Jefferson called Hamilton a monarchist.
    The Articles of Confederation embodied an entirely different concept of indirect taxation. The United States was to levy a tax, not on individual property holders, but on each state, based on its aggregate land value. The assumption was that each state would levy a similar tax on each county, and so on down to the individual. In this way, the individual would never have to face a federal tax agent directly, and if the federal government did not have the full support of the states, it could not bully them as easily as it could bully individuals.

    Unfortunately, states did not support the federal government to its satisfaction from the beginning (being strapped from the war). Rather than working things out patiently, Hamilton introduced power-centralizing measures into the new Constitution. One was the other kind of indirect taxation, the mosquito-bite kind that you don't see happening. Royal libertarians trumpet this covert taxation as a virtue over direct real estate taxation, even when it means that "free trade" is being taxed.

    Socialist Confusions

    The classical liberal distinctions between land, labor and capital were greatly confused by socialists, and particularly Marxists, who substituted the fuzzy abstract term, "means of production," for all three factors. They also blurred the distinction between common property and state property, for socialists believed, as royalty also believed, that they were the people.

    Today, the confusions between land and capital and between state property and common property are shared by socialists and royal libertarians, and only classical liberals keep these distinctions clearly defined. Yet royal libertarians frequently duck the land issue by charging that it is the classical liberals, not the royal libertarians, who have embraced socialist ideas.

    Blocking Locke

    John Locke is often misrepresented by royal libertarians, who quote him very selectively. For example, Locke did say that:
    Whatsoever then he removes out of the state that nature hath provided, and left it in, he hath mixed his labour with, and joined to it something that is his own, and thereby makes it his property.

    But Locke condemned anyone who took more than he needed as a "spoiler of the commons":

    ...if the fruits rotted, or the venison putrified, before he could spend it, he offended against the common law of nature, and was liable to be punished; he invaded his neighbour's share, for he had no right, farther than his use called for any of them, and they might serve to afford him conveniences of life.

    The same measures governed the possession of land too: whatsoever he tilled and reaped, laid up and made use of, before it spoiled, that was his peculiar right; whatsoever he enclosed, and could feed, and make use of, the cattle and product was also his. But if either the grass of his enclosure rotted on the ground, or the fruit of his planting perished without gathering, and laying up, this part of the earth, notwithstanding his enclosure, was still to be looked on as waste, and might be the possession of any other.

    Locke also restricted appropriation of land by the proviso, ignored by royal libertarians, that there must be

    still enough, and as good left; and more than the yet unprovided could use. So that, in effect, there was never the less left for others because of his enclosure for himself: for he that leaves as much as another can make use of, does as good as take nothing at all.

    Now if the situation is that there is enough free land, and as good, left after you take and cultivate your land, than your land has no market value, for who would pay you for land that is not better than land that can be had for free? So, besides the fact that Locke's justification of privatizing land is far more limited than royal libertarians portray it to be, it is irrelevant to the question of land value tax, as it applies only to land that has no value.

    Furthermore, Locke based his scenario on pre-monetary societies, where a landholder would find that "it was useless, as well as dishonest, to carve himself too much, or take more than he needed." With the introduction of money, Locke noted, all land quickly became appropriated. Why? Because with money, those who can take more land than they have personal use for suddenly have reason to do so, as between them they will have taken all the land, and others will have to pay rent to them. So, with the introduction of money, the Lockean rationale for landed property falls apart, even according to Locke. And while Locke did not propose a remedy specifically for to this problem, he repeatedly stated that all taxes should be on real estate.

    The tragedy of the common misunderstanding
    In their search for excuses to deny any common right to land, royal libertarians are fond of citing Garrett Hardin's work, "Tragedy of the Commons." Or at least they cite the title, which is all most royal libertarians are familiar with. Hardin is himself an advocate of land value taxation, and has criticized misinterpretations of his work with the lament that "The title of my 1968 paper should have been `The Tragedy of the Unmanaged Commons.'" [Emphasis Hardin's]

    Thoughtful Libertarian Party leadership

    Fortunately, the bias toward royal libertarianism has been shaken off by many of the philosophical leaders of the party. Founder David Nolan supports land value tax as the only tax that does not fall on productivity, and the late Karl Hess often described land value tax as the one tax to levy until the state could be abolished entirely. It is mostly the von Miseans, the Objectivists, and the wishful thinkers who adopt the royal rationalization that they can hoard all the land to themselves with impunity.

    The red, red herring

    Royal libertarians are fond of confusing the classical liberal concept of common land ownership, particularly as espoused by land value tax advocate Henry George, with socialism. Yet socialists have always been contemptuous of George and of the distinction between land monopoly and capital monopolies. However, Frank Chodorov and Albert J. Nock (the original editors of The Freeman) were both advocates of George's economic remedies as well as lovers of individual liberty.

    The only reformer abroad in the world in my time who interested me in the least was Henry George, because his project did not contemplate prescription, but, on the contrary, would reduce it to almost zero. He was the only one of the lot who believed in freedom, or (as far as I could see) had any approximation to an intelligent idea of what freedom is, and of the economic prerequisites to attaining it....One is immensely tickled to see how things are coming out nowadays with reference to his doctrine, for George was in fact the best friend the capitalist ever had. He built up the most complete and most impregnable defense of the rights of capital that was ever constructed, and if the capitalists of his day had had sense enough to dig in behind it, their successors would not now be squirming under the merciless exactions which collectivism is laying on them, and which George would have no scruples whatever about describing as sheer highwaymanry.

    --Albert J. Nock "Thoughts on Utopia"


    Von Mises misses

    Ludwig von Mises acknowledged in several places wholly unique distinctions between land and capital, but in his zeal to denounce land value tax, stated that,
    Classical economy erred when it assigned land a distinct place in its theoretical scheme. Land is, in its economic sense, a factor of production, and the laws determining the formation of the prices of land are the same that determine the formation of other forms of production.

    Or, paraphrasing of Jay Leno, go ahead and buy up the land. We'll make more. The difference between land and capital is huge, and explains why the cost of silicon chips goes down as demand goes up, while the cost of Silicon Valley goes up as demand goes up. There is no natural monopolization of capital, but, with state sanction, there is monopolization of land. But von Mises would sooner obscure these distinctions in socialist fashion than to embrace a proposal he mistakenly thought to be socialist.

    In his first edition of Human Action, von Mises attacked land value tax as based on the socialist principle that legitimate property flows only from labor. But that is also a libertarian principle, a classical liberal principle, an Austrian principle, and even the von Misean principle behind private property! So, by the third edition, von Mises changed his text to read that land taxers claim legitimate property flows only from manual labor.

    This is much more logically consistent, but factually incorrect. It is a correct assessment of what many socialists believe, but it is not a correct assessment of what land taxers believe. Henry George, the most prominent land taxer of all, wrote in his magnum opus, Progress and Poverty,

    Thus the term labor includes all human exertion in the production of wealth, and wages, being that part of the produce which goes to labor, includes all reward for such exertion. There is, therefore, in the political-economic sense of the term, no distinction as to the kind of labor, or as to whether its reward is received through an employer or not....

    George also defended the ownership of property that flows from the employment of capital.

    Perhaps von Mises was biased by his location in Europe, where classical liberalism had not fared as well as in America. He might also have first seen land value tax in the Communist Manifesto, and not realized that it was there as a socialist ploy to co-opt support from classical liberalism. (Marx expressed contempt for land value tax as a reform in its own right, and openly stated that his support of it was only to draw people to what he really wanted, which was to control capital.) If this is where von Mises got his first exposure to the idea, it would not be surprising to see him close his mind to it.

    Ayn Rand comes sooo close!

    Ayn Rand made arguments against perpetual intellectual property that are remarkably similar to arguments against perpetual landed property. She also saw the distinction between land and capital in terms of common vs. private property, but fell back into confusion at other times. She rightly chastised the Encyclopaedia Brittanica's definition of capitalism for confusing land and capital, which she quoted as follows:
    Fundamental to any system called capitalist are the relations between private owners of nonpersonal means of production (land, mines, industrial plants, etc., collectively known as capital) [emphasis Rand's]

    Then she quoted a John Galt speech in Atlas Shrugged in which Galt stated sarcastically, "A factory is a `natural resource', like a tree, a rock or a mud puddle."

    By Jove, I think she's...

    But are the heroes of Atlas Shrugged real capitalists? The inventor John Galt is, and perhaps Hank Rearden of Rearden Metals is, too, although one wonders where he got his ore and fuel. But Taggart Railways enjoys extremely valuable right-of-way privileges from the state. (Once land is parceled out, it is virtually impossible to build a railroad without either land value tax or eminent domain.)

    Then there is Francisco D'Anconia, who owned the world's richest copper deposits, and who took delight in blowing up his mines and driving the price of copper through the roof_something that would not work nearly as well for a capitalist as for a resource monopolist, as there is no way competitors can make copper ore that doesn't already exist, and, buried or not, D'Anconia's copper ore still belonged to him.

    The economics of Galt's Gulch

    Most revealing of all is the Randian utopia, Galt's Gulch, which was financed entirely from, yes, land rents. Midas Mulligan owned the whole place, and was, in essence, the government. All the common services, from Galt's magic energy machine to Hank Rearden's village railroad, to their defense system (some sort of jammer that made the valley invisible to passing planes) were financed from ground rents collected by Mulligan from the landholders. Although politically Galt's Gulch was a monarchy, economically it was a Georgist Single-Tax community, with all community services paid for from the rent of land.
    Who has the authority to collect land rent?
    Many libertarians struggle with the legitimate question of how any governing body achieves rightful jurisdiction in a community, and we join them in opposing collection by such super-statist organizations as the United Nations, which is substantially a federation of tyrannies. However, royal libertarians raise the question selectively and rhetorically in regard to community collection of land rents. They acknowledge that there must be courts to settle, among other things, property disputes. It seems rather obvious that whatever entity has authority to rule on who gets the land also has authority to rule on who gets the land rent.

    Fear of a funded government

    There is also a well founded libertarian concern that land rent could provide funds enough to support a corrupt and oppressive government. Most libertarian supporters of the governmental collection of land rent therefore fall into two camps. One would give the people power to limit how much money the government can take, but would stipulate that all such money come entirely from ground rents and natural resource severance royalties. The other would take the full rent, but would stipulate that the government can still only spend what the citizens authorize it to spend. The rest would be distributed on a per-capita basis.

    Ending excuses for big government

    Much of the government spending to which libertarians strenuously object is made necessary by its taxing productivity instead of land values.
    The property tax falls mostly on improvements, so less housing is built, giving the government an excuse to build public housing. Profits are taxed, leading to less employment and giving government an excuse to spend money on economic stimulus projects. Family income is taxed to the point that they have difficulty buying a house or sending their children to college, so government institutes subsidized mortgages and student loans.

    Even the indirect effects are substantial. Land speculations gone sour chew up inner cities, so poor people turn to crime (if drug selling and prostitution be crimes) and the government gets an excuse to beef up the police state.

    Politically connected real estate interests see that they can buy up land in the boondocks for a pittance and then get other taxpayers to build them a superhighway, increasing the value of their holdings by orders of magnitude. With land value tax they would have ultimately paid for their own highway or more likely would not have had it built in the first place.

    Even welfare increases do not stay in the hands of welfare recipients, but are quickly greeted by higher rent demands from ghetto landlords. (The War on Poverty did little to end poverty, but it did a lot to enrich absentee owners of poor communities.)

    All goes back to the land, and the land owner is enabled to absorb to himself a share of almost every public and every private benefit, however important or however pitiful those benefits may be.

    --Winston Churchill


    Isn't there some other way?

    There are two models that tie land ownership with use. One is replacing all taxes on productivity, that is, on land use, with taxes on the value of land itself. The other is the Lockean pre-monetary system. It would have to rely on a judicial mechanism, whereby you assert your claim to land by demonstrating that you are using the land. While the latter method does not provide any community funds (a mixed blessing, perhaps), it does subject your landhold to the discretion of that judicial mechanism. It is far less intrusive into your business for the community to assess the market value of land than to assess the validity of what you are doing on that land.

    Can't we do this without the state?

    There are, in fact, proprietary communities operating on the single tax model. Arden, Delaware, with a population of 4900, has had no local taxes since 1900. The Arden Corporation collects a fair market rent on each land parcel, which is reappraised annually. (They actually collect only about a fourth of the rent to which they are entitled.) From that they not only pay for all the municipal services, but rebate all property taxes levied by the county and school district.
    There are excellent reasons for libertarians to prefer the land trust route over the political route. Private communities can be built on explicit contracts (leases) with the citizens, can have internal democratic processes that are vastly superior to electoral democracy, can be far more flexible and free of state intervention, and can be downright profitable (even with trust investors pocketing a mere fraction of the rent). Most of all, dealing with investors is far more pleasant and self-affirming than dealing with politicians.

    Geolibertarians

    We are libertarians who make the classical liberal distinction between land, labor and capital. We believe in the private possession of land without interference from the state, but in the community collection of land rent to prevent monopolization of land.
    We believe that all government activities should at least be limited to those which increase the value of land by more than what the government collects, and that government should be funded entirely from the land value increases it creates.

    We oppose direct state monopolization of land as well as state-sanctioned private monopolization of land, and advocate that state and federally held land pay land rent to the communities the same as private land.

    We advocate that government be allowed to spend only what is authorized by voter referendum or similar device and that it take for itself the minimum it is authorized to spend. Those who advocate collection of the full rent stipulate that the proceeds be divided among community members on a per-capita or similar basis, for the land, and the rent, belong to the people, not the state.

    We condemn the taxation of property improvements, and of all activities, productive, consumptive, or recreational, as invasions by the state into the private affairs of free individuals.


    This imperfect policy of non-intervention, or laissez-faire, led straight to a most hideous and dreadful economic exploitation; starvation wages, slum dwelling, killing hours, pauperism, coffin-ships, child-labour--nothing like it had ever been seen in modern times...People began to say, if this is what State abstention comes to, let us have some State intervention.

    But the state had intervened; that was the whole trouble. The State had established one monopoly--the landlord's monopoly of economic rent--thereby shutting off great hordes of people from free access to the only source of human subsistence, and driving them into factories to work for whatever Mr. Gradgrind and Mr. Bottles chose to give them. The land of England, while by no means nearly all actually occupied, was all legally occupied; and this State-created monopoly enabled landlords to satisfy their needs and desires with little exertion or none, but it also removed the land from competition with industry in the labor market, thus creating a huge, constant and exigent labour-surplus. [Emphasis Nock's]

    --Albert J. Nock, "The Gods' Lookout" February 1934
    This quote sums up royal libertarianism nicely.
    Last edited by over-man; July 10, 2009 at 10:46 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Are you a Real Libertarian, or a ROYAL Libertarian?

    insert some spoiler tags
    I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you F___ with me, I'll kill you all.
    - Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders

    Nostalgia aint as good as it used to be

  3. #3

    Default Re: Are you a Real Libertarian, or a ROYAL Libertarian?

    neither

  4. #4

    Default Re: Are you a Real Libertarian, or a ROYAL Libertarian?

    That Albert Nock is correct untill he states that 30s Britain is a Stalinist state.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  5. #5
    .......................
    Civitate

    Join Date
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    Default Re: Are you a Real Libertarian, or a ROYAL Libertarian?

    This imperfect policy of non-intervention, or laissez-faire, led straight to a most hideous and dreadful economic exploitation; starvation wages, slum dwelling, killing hours, pauperism, coffin-ships, child-labour--nothing like it had ever been seen in modern times...People began to say, if this is what State abstention comes to, let us have some State intervention.

    But the state had intervened; that was the whole trouble. The State had established one monopoly--the landlord's monopoly of economic rent--thereby shutting off great hordes of people from free access to the only source of human subsistence, and driving them into factories to work for whatever Mr. Gradgrind and Mr. Bottles chose to give them. The land of England, while by no means nearly all actually occupied, was all legally occupied; and this State-created monopoly enabled landlords to satisfy their needs and desires with little exertion or none, but it also removed the land from competition with industry in the labor market, thus creating a huge, constant and exigent labour-surplus. [Emphasis Nock's]

    --Albert J. Nock, "The Gods' Lookout" February 1934
    The failure of Libertarianism is it wants no monopolies but believes they can be held at bay and controlled with no intervention too. A case of having your cake and wanting to eat it. To solve the situation above you needed Liberalism. And that's what happened.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Are you a Real Libertarian, or a ROYAL Libertarian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Яome kb8 View Post
    The failure of Libertarianism is it wants no monopolies but believes they can be held at bay and controlled with no intervention too. A case of having your cake and wanting to eat it. To solve the situation above you needed Liberalism. And that's what happened.
    On the contrary, libertarians argue that on a free market, monopolies and cartels are not harmful as they could never ask more than a reasonable as new competitors would step is, also monopolies do not only have compete within their own market but also with all other markets as a consumer can only spend his resources once.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Are you a Real Libertarian, or a ROYAL Libertarian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Generaal Van Heutsz View Post
    On the contrary, libertarians argue that on a free market, monopolies and cartels are not harmful as they could never ask more than a reasonable as new competitors would step is, also monopolies do not only have compete within their own market but also with all other markets as a consumer can only spend his resources once.
    Which is just stupid. Throughout history, it has happened in laissez-faire states that monopolies were formed out of the free market and that those monopolies dominated the economy. They very rarely competed with eachother, but prefered to prevent new entrepeneurs from becoming economically notable. What you then get is what is essentially most of the economy being run by an aristocracy/kleptocracy of a few wealthy people who wouldn't think of giving up their position. Examples: Dutch Republic in the Golden Age; America in the Gilded Age and the industrial revolution in Belgium.

    The fact remains that Libertarianism either relies too much on the good of man, or too much on his greed.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  8. #8

    Default Re: Are you a Real Libertarian, or a ROYAL Libertarian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    Which is just stupid. Throughout history, it has happened in laissez-faire states that monopolies were formed out of the free market and that those monopolies dominated the economy. They very rarely competed with eachother, but prefered to prevent new entrepeneurs from becoming economically notable. What you then get is what is essentially most of the economy being run by an aristocracy/kleptocracy of a few wealthy people who wouldn't think of giving up their position. Examples: Dutch Republic in the Golden Age; America in the Gilded Age and the industrial revolution in Belgium.

    The fact remains that Libertarianism either relies too much on the good of man, or too much on his greed.
    Stop spreading these lies, I already saw several posts on this forum directed to you explaining the differences between libertarianism and mercantilism, yet you keep repeating the same nonsense over and over.

    Libertarianism is the ideology of self ownership, it means that you are the sovereign of your body and that you and only you can decide what to do with it and therefor with the fruits of its labor. It therefor also implies that individuals are free to exchange those fruits of their labor anyway they agree on a voluntary basis. Acquiring resources and fruits of labor at gunpoint is NOT libertarian and it is NOT laissez-faire.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Are you a Real Libertarian, or a ROYAL Libertarian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Generaal Van Heutsz View Post
    Stop spreading these lies, I already saw several posts on this forum directed to you explaining the differences between libertarianism and mercantilism, yet you keep repeating the same nonsense over and over.
    And I kept saying over and over that that isn't mercantilism. Mercantilism was state-licensed capitalism abroad, created in the early modern period, whilst I'm clearly refering to the merchants within the state themselves, and I'm clearly refering to the industrial revolution and post-modern era as well.

    The fact remains that in a free market state without much government intervention (laissez-faire), it has nearly always occured that there was an intial period of what is indeed a free market but after a while some entrepeneurs establish monopolies in several areas, they become incredibly powerful and form what are essentially kleptocracies of wealthy entrepeneurs and bourgoisie, which dominate both economy and politics and are bent on keeping their power. Examples are families such as De Witt, de Graeff, Bicker and various others in the Dutch republic, which developed from rather minor burgher positions to the most powerful men of the world, who weasled their way into the Staten-Generaal, dominated the VOC, married themselves into the arisocracy and had personal trade contacts across Europe.

    Or the entrepeneurs in the American Gilded Age. Men such as Carnegie and Rockefeller, who came from very humble origins, who climbed the social and economic ladder and became the richest men in the world and practically created the American industry. The American Dream, you know? But by the end of the 19th century till about WWI these men, and their families, practically dominated the American economy. Most of the industry was their private property. They, and many others who had similair succes, built the railroads. Ergo, they decided what happened with the products that were created and they often simply used them in the home market, rather than rival foreign nations with international trade. Another thing was that, by that time, the majority of people that had their social standing when they were born, didn't live in the same US that they did. It wasn't the rapidly industrialising virgin country anymore, but an already largely industrialised country. Most had little other choice than work in the empires of Rockefeller and Carnegie, for low wages and under rather unethical conditions. Unions were rather powerless and the US wasn't anymore humane in it's treatment of it's industrial workers than the Europeans.



    Libertarianism is the ideology of self ownership, it means that you are the sovereign of your body and that you and only you can decide what to do with it and therefor with the fruits of its labor. It therefor also implies that individuals are free to exchange those fruits of their labor anyway they agree on a voluntary basis.
    It seems that every Libertarian has a completely different definition of Libertarianism.

    Acquiring resources and fruits of labor at gunpoint is NOT libertarian and it is NOT laissez-faire.
    Except it is, has always been and always will be. Historical revisionism and wishful thinking isn't going to change that.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  10. #10
    Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Are you a Real Libertarian, or a ROYAL Libertarian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Яome kb8 View Post
    The failure of Libertarianism is it wants no monopolies but believes they can be held at bay and controlled with no intervention too. A case of having your cake and wanting to eat it. To solve the situation above you needed Liberalism. And that's what happened.
    Modern liberalism(socialism) simply tries to mask the symptoms(huge wealth disparity) without adressing the cause, land monopoly, and in doing so it stifles free enterprise by taxing producers and bread-earners instead of landlords.

    Landlords grow richer in their sleep, without working, risking, or economizing. The increase in the value of land, arising as it does from the efforts of an entire community, should belong to the community and not to the individual who might hold title.

    John Stuart Mill
    REAL liberals (classical liberals) agree with me.

  11. #11
    Aetius's Avatar Vae victis
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    Default Re: Are you a Real Libertarian, or a ROYAL Libertarian?

    Quote Originally Posted by over-man View Post
    Modern liberalism(socialism) simply tries to mask the symptoms(huge wealth disparity) without adressing the cause, land monopoly, and in doing so it stifles free enterprise by taxing producers and bread-earners instead of landlords.

    Landlords grow richer in their sleep, without working, risking, or economizing. The increase in the value of land, arising as it does from the efforts of an entire community, should belong to the community and not to the individual who might hold title.

    John Stuart Mill

    REAL liberals (classical liberals) agree with me.
    Yes landlords, a popular economic villain. that most everyone can relate.

    You don't think they risk much? What if they don't find enough tenants? What if maintence fees go up? What if a natural disaster destroys there land and buildings on it? What if the job market goes elsewhere?

    Its not an easy job, and thusly it is profitable.
    Blut und Boden

  12. #12
    Civis
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    Default Re: Are you a Real Libertarian, or a ROYAL Libertarian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aetius View Post
    Yes landlords, a popular economic villain. that most everyone can relate.

    You don't think they risk much? What if they don't find enough tenants? What if maintence fees go up? What if a natural disaster destroys there land and buildings on it? What if the job market goes elsewhere?

    Its not an easy job, and thusly it is profitable.
    it would be interesting to know how many people, who bash landlords, have ever owned land themselves. My parents own apartments and rent them out to college kids it took them many years for my parents to afford them, i find it hard to see how my parents are evil manipulators seeing how they repaint the apartments every year, repair broken utilities anytime the tenants call, struggle to find tenants, have tenants who did not pay rent then win in their court cases and don't have to pay.

    as for the land issue, land should be given to the children, however you want to split it up, or should be auctioned off if the owner didn't give it to anyone. land is property, now ask yourself is it fair if when you parents die the government scavenges all their property (tvs, china, heirlooms). if we keep anti monopoly laws, and gov regulations in places that need it we will not have large land owner aristocracies.

    as for the economic arguement as a former hardcore libertarian i know that it is the fairest (free of regulation) economic poicy. however my political views have shifted from fairness being the most important to individual liberties being the most important. If we allow to much gov regulation we will have no individual liberties however if we let the corporations and companies take over and build monopolies we'll just become another demographic and will be slaves to the corporations. Its a balancing act however i will say it incredibly easy for the government to take you rights away and its very hard for companies to take your rights away

  13. #13
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Are you a Real Libertarian, or a ROYAL Libertarian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Яome kb8 View Post
    The failure of Libertarianism is it wants no monopolies but believes they can be held at bay and controlled with no intervention too. A case of having your cake and wanting to eat it. To solve the situation above you needed Liberalism. And that's what happened.
    Can I buy you the big book of libertarian fallacies and pin it to your forehead?

  14. #14
    .......................
    Civitate

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    Default Re: Are you a Real Libertarian, or a ROYAL Libertarian?

    OK buddy, I'm not American. I meant real (what everyone in the world except Americans call Liberalism) liberalism, not Socialism-renamed-American-Liberalism.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Are you a Real Libertarian, or a ROYAL Libertarian?

    The unintentionally amusing thing there is as I suspected there is no book, only enough to cover one post-it note. But go ahead, I could do with a good laugh.

  16. #16
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Are you a Real Libertarian, or a ROYAL Libertarian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Яome kb8 View Post
    The unintentionally amusing thing there is as I suspected there is no book, only enough to cover one post-it note. But go ahead, I could do with a good laugh.
    Yes Rome there is no school of economics based around it. There are no libertarian philosophies or theories. And of course every libertarian or anarchist wants a society without controls, we're just that dumb.

    Just like every Tory is a homophobe who wants to close down all industry, crush all unions and declare war on Argentina all over again.

    Seriously if your going to misrepresent a position I stand for then at least do it intelligently. The last time you tried this tack I posted an article and you agreed with it. Would you like me to post it again?

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Are you a Real Libertarian, or a ROYAL Libertarian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
    Yes Rome there is no school of economics based around it. There are no libertarian philosophies or theories. And of course every libertarian or anarchist wants a society without controls, we're just that dumb.
    Never said you were dumb or not want controls. I was answering that specific quote in the OP which the OP said summed it up quite nicely. Essentially it is the idea of unrestricted faith in the free market. It's Utopian.

    Just like every Tory is a homophobe who wants to close down all industry, crush all unions and declare war on Argentina all over again.
    Not far off in my experience.

    Seriously if your going to misrepresent a position I stand for then at least do it intelligently. The last time you tried this tack I posted an article and you agreed with it. Would you like me to post it again?
    It may help.

  18. #18
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Are you a Real Libertarian, or a ROYAL Libertarian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Яome kb8 View Post
    Never said you were dumb or not want controls. I was answering that specific quote in the OP which the OP said summed it up quite nicely. Essentially it is the idea of unrestricted faith in the free market. It's Utopian.
    The failure of Libertarianism is it wants no monopolies.....

    It pays to be specific because you said the failure of libertarianism, which it isn't. You should have said failure of the OP.

    Not far off in my experience.
    It may help.

    Well it appears we are going to debate Thatcher I don't see how she destroyed society but I'm intrigued to know why you do.

    And as an anarchist (which you know I am at heart) you can't seriously think I'd advocate a statist plan. That being said I don't believe in nationalistic culture or the collective conscious/unconscious of a nation that have collectivist aims and principles. No serious anarchist will ever advocate a society without controls.

    Anarchists would remove the centralisation of authority and power, those processes that lead to abuse and corruption, war crime and oppression. In short the violence inherent within its form.

    I'm paraphrasing an article from my favorite anarchist so I went and hunted out the article, by francois tremblay:


    A common objection used against Anarchy is that it is a utopian ideology. To be more specific, the argument is that Anarchy cannot “work” because it would require people to be “perfectly good and altruistic.” Since this is quite impossible, we must conclude that Anarchy is a utopian ideology which relies on a false view of human nature.

    While popular, this objection is hard to understand on its face. Why do they believe an Anarchy requires particularly moral individuals? Is it because there is no authority to mediate between individuals, righting wrongs? While it is true that a society cannot survive long without a mediation process, and it would be very silly for anyone to fight against that process, it is unclear why we need a centralized authority in order to effect it. Anarchy is not the position that mediation should be eliminated: rather, it is the position that mediation should be decentralized. It is not order that we don’t believe in, but centralized authoritarian order relying on hierarchies of power. That’s what we’re fighting against.

    Unfortunately, we have been so conditioned to believe that centralized authorities are necessary that often Anarchy is confused with political nihilism. Yet nothing is farther from the truth. Absolutism and totalitarianism are close to nihilism: once we accept the validity of centralized control, then “anything goes.” Whatever the government does becomes ipso facto justified by the need for centralized control as a check on individual values. Anarchists completely reject this reasoning and uphold individual values as the only possible foundation for a functional society.

    In fact, we precisely oppose the State because we believe that it exhibits all too human vices: aggression, greed, dishonesty, ignorance. The State exhibits these vices because it is composed of human beings who also have these vices, like all human beings possessing control and power over others. It is not that we need to have “the right people” in power or “the right class” in power: human nature itself is what is preventing statism from “working.”

    The Anarchist argument is simple. If people are good, then we don’t need a government to enforce morality. If people are evil, then the people composing government are also evil, and being in government have the power to exploit others much more fully than a private individual could. If some people are good, and some people are evil, then we should desire very much to remove any concentration of power, since such a concentration would attract people who wish to control others- evil people- and give them that control.

    People believe that Anarchy is utopian because they believe that Anarchy is a nihilistic ideology- that Anarchists are against all organization. As I pointed out, this is simple ignorance. Anarchists want to remove centralized authority and hierarchies of power: in short, those processes that evil people can use to exploit others most easily, those processes that create war, generalized crime, chaos and oppression.

    Furthermore, we must point out a major origin problem in the notion that Anarchy is utopian. If Anarchy cannot “work,” then government itself, which must obviously have been created from a state of Anarchy, also cannot “work.” How can an unworkable system produce a workable system? The reverse can happen, of course. A skilled carpenter can create a botched piece, but an unskilled carpenter cannot create a masterpiece. If the initial Anarchist state of affairs was “unworkable,” then where was the potential in this “unworkable” society to create the “order” of government? This destroys neatly the argument that Anarchy is utopian while statism is not.

    If we are to state the case clearly, we can say this. Statism is the belief that a group of people, who possess all the guns and all the legitimacy, able to make all the rules for itself, will not want to exploit its subjects. Instead, they will act completely altruistically and help fulfill the values of their subjects.

    And we know from reality that it ain’t so. This is a Big Lie. Statism is utopian to the extreme, and we need to hammer that on every opportunity we get.


    @Seneca. I don't know how to reply really. That was an excellent article.

  19. #19
    BNS's Avatar ...
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    Default Re: Are you a Real Libertarian, or a ROYAL Libertarian?

    I have trouble seeing why land should be treated differently from other resources when they are all scarce. Why should I be entitled to wealth generated by other people just because they own a bigger plot of land? But maybe I'm just not understanding your argument.

    I guess I'm for now.



  20. #20
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    Default Re: Are you a Real Libertarian, or a ROYAL Libertarian?

    Oh yes, I remember that article. I never said I agree with the theory, but that it explained things well. It's still Utopian Seneca.

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