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  1. #1
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Gay marriage, state suing the government...

    Taken from the cybernations forums.


    QUOTE
    (CNN) -- Massachusetts sued the U.S. government on Wednesday, challenging the constitutionality of a federal law that defines marriage as the union of a man and a woman.

    "We're taking this action today because, first, we believe that [the Defense of Marriage Act] directly interferes with Massachusetts' long-standing sovereign authority to define and regulate the marital status of its residents," Attorney General Martha Coakley said Wednesday afternoon.

    "Massachusetts has a single category of married persons, and we view all married persons equally and identically," she said.

    "DOMA divides that category into two distinct and unequal classes of marriage."

    The lawsuit argues that the act, which became law in 1996, denies same-sex couples essential rights and protections, including federal income tax credits, employment and retirement benefits, health insurance coverage and Social Security payments.

    "In enacting DOMA, Congress overstepped its authority, undermined states' efforts to recognize marriages between same-sex couples, and codified an animus towards gay and lesbian people," the state wrote in the lawsuit, which was filed Wednesday in federal court.

    Massachusetts, the first state to legalize gay marriage, said that about 16,000 same-sex couples have been married there since 2004, when it began issuing marriage licenses. Since that time, the lawsuit said, "the security and stability of families has been strengthened in important ways throughout the state. "

    The state is challenging Section 3 of the law, which defines marriage as "a legal union between one man and one woman as husband and wife" and a spouse as "a person of the opposite sex who is a husband or a wife."

    Before the act, the lawsuit argues, defining marital status was the prerogative of the states.

    The law "eviscerated more than 200 years of federal government deference to the states with respect to defining marriage," it said.

    The lawsuit also argues that the law forces Massachusetts to treat same-sex married couples differently from heterosexual married couples, particularly through determining who qualifies for the state's Medicaid program, known as MassHealth, and whether a same-sex spouse of a veteran can be buried in a veteran cemetery.

    "But for DOMA, married individuals in same-sex relationships in the commonwealth would receive the same status, obligations, responsibilities, rights, and protections as married individuals in different-sex relationships under local, state, and federal laws," the lawsuit said.

    The defendants named in the lawsuit include the Department of Health and Human Services, Secretary of Health and Human Services Kathleen Sebelius, the Department of Veterans Affairs, Veterans Affairs Secretary Eric Shinseki and the United States itself.

    Charles Miller, a spokesman for the Department of Justice, said the department will review the case but noted that President Obama supports the legislative repeal of the Defense of Marriage Act.

    In March, Gay & Lesbian Advocates & Defenders -- the same Boston-based group that successfully argued in 2003 for same-sex marriage rights in Massachusetts -- also sued the federal government over Section 3 of the Defense of Marriage Act.

    Besides Massachusetts, three other states recognize same-sex marriages: Connecticut, Maine, and Iowa. Vermont and New Hampshire will join their company when same-sex marriages become legal later this year and early next year.

    So, something I suppose was inevitable has finally happened - a straightforward constitutional challenge on the Defense of Marriage Act. It'll be a while before anything actually happens, but it's an important step, I think. Overall, the legal basis for the lawsuit seems solid to me, since it's based on Amendments X and XIV as both a state rights and civil rights case - that first, that the federal government doesn't have any constitutional authority in regards to dictating marriage laws and thus it devolves to the states, and that secondly, the current act leads to a "seperate but equal becomes inherently unequal" situation like the one that was overturned in Brown v. Board of Education that would be subject to the Equal Protection clause.

    Any thoughts?
    Thoughts?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Gay marriage, state suing the government...

    Doesn't Massachusetts already have gay marriage?

    If so, what's the problem?

  3. #3
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Gay marriage, state suing the government...

    Quote Originally Posted by ivan_the_terrible View Post
    Doesn't Massachusetts already have gay marriage?

    If so, what's the problem?
    They are in favour of it but they are challenging the US government on its stance as it conflicts with their own.

  4. #4
    CtrlAltDe1337's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Gay marriage, state suing the government...

    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
    They are in favour of it but they are challenging the US government on its stance as it conflicts with their own.
    The Federal law doesn't conflict with their state ruling AFAIK, so it shouldn't be a problem for them. I don't see the issue here.


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    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Gay marriage, state suing the government...

    Quote Originally Posted by ivan_the_terrible View Post
    Doesn't Massachusetts already have gay marriage?

    If so, what's the problem?
    The problem is recognition across state lines. The Constitution mandates that states have to recognise licenses, documents, etc. across state lines. DOMA is a clearly unconstitutional piece of legislation, and I think it's a good thing that Mass. is suing the US government over it.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Gay marriage, state suing the government...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximiIian View Post
    The problem is recognition across state lines. The Constitution mandates that states have to recognise licenses, documents, etc. across state lines. DOMA is a clearly unconstitutional piece of legislation, and I think it's a good thing that Mass. is suing the US government over it.
    Where exactly does it mandate that? If it is in an amendment after #10, then that amendment is itself unconstitutional as it violates the 10th Amendment, because if states have to recognize the gay marriage licenses from a state that recognizes gay marriage, than they cannot ban gay marriage in their own state; Therefore, this violates the 10th Amendment right of the states to legislate anything not covered by amendments 1-9.




    "That war is a terrible thing I agree, but it is not so terrible that we should submit to anything in order to avoid it. For why do we all vaunt our civic equality and liberty of speech and all that we mean by the word freedom, if nothing is more advantageous than peace?" — Polybios, Historiai, IV.31

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    nopasties's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Gay marriage, state suing the government...

    Good for the state lawyers but there is much more pressing issues in the country.

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    Manco's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Gay marriage, state suing the government...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang von Zweibrücken View Post
    Where exactly does it mandate that? If it is in an amendment after #10, then that amendment is itself unconstitutional as it violates the 10th Amendment, because if states have to recognize the gay marriage licenses from a state that recognizes gay marriage, than they cannot ban gay marriage in their own state; Therefore, this violates the 10th Amendment right of the states to legislate anything not covered by amendments 1-9.
    Article IV

    Section 1. Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state. And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof.
    Don't know where exactly in the hierarchy that is. But then again I'm not American and don't expect 3 centuries old documents to be relevant any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by nopasties View Post
    Good for the state lawyers but there is much more pressing issues in the country.
    Such a lazy argument. It's not because there are other, perhaps more pressing issues, that this issue can't be dealt with.
    Some day I'll actually write all the reviews I keep promising...

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    nopasties's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Gay marriage, state suing the government...

    Quote Originally Posted by Manco View Post
    Such a lazy argument. It's not because there are other, perhaps more pressing issues, that this issue can't be dealt with.
    I'm for the process it is trying to succeed at. The political capital wasted on the issue could be better used elsewhere is what I'm annoyed at.

  10. #10
    Angrychris's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Gay marriage, state suing the government...

    maine legalized it and to a lesser exstent reminds me of the medical marijuana laws.

    Leave it to the modder to perfect the works of the paid developers for no profit at all.

  11. #11
    ♔Jean-Luc Picard♔'s Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Gay marriage, state suing the government...

    I may disagree with gay marriage, but the determination of the status of marriage is a state power, not the federal govt's.

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Gay marriage, state suing the government...

    Personally, I've long suspected a major reason why so much sucks in the US has something to do with their apparent patent inability to get even their damn legislation properly harmonised on interstate level...

  13. #13

    Default Re: Gay marriage, state suing the government...

    As far as I can tell, Massachusetts' sovereignty is in no way compromised: they wanted gay marriage, they got gay marriage.

    Whether other states recognise it is up to said states, no? I mean, Massachusetts doesn't have the right to impose their legislation on other, sovereign states, right?

  14. #14
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Gay marriage, state suing the government...

    Quote Originally Posted by ivan_the_terrible View Post
    Whether other states recognise it is up to said states, no?
    No. The Constitution clearly stipulates that other states must recognise documents (in modern times, usually driver's licenses and marriage licenses) across state boundaries. State-specific legislation has nothing whatsoever to do with this.
    What the State of Massachusetts is bringing to court against the Federal Government is that DOMA violates that constitutional stipulation, by making marriage licenses an "exception" to that rule.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Gay marriage, state suing the government...

    This lawsuit is just a ploy to bring gay marriage to the Supreme Court and force it on all the states (which, by the way, would be a blatant violation of state sovereignty). The sovereignty of Massachusetts and the right of the Massachusetts state government to define marriage as it chooses are not in the least compromised by the Defense of Marriage Act. Everyone knows that. This is just a typical left-wing tactic: put a bunch of leftists on the federal courts and then bring lawsuits that can be used to impose left-wing policy on the whole country.
    Make America great again!

  16. #16
    DimondLight's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Gay marriage, state suing the government...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion View Post
    This lawsuit is just a ploy to bring gay marriage to the Supreme Court and force it on all the states (which, by the way, would be a blatant violation of state sovereignty). The sovereignty of Massachusetts and the right of the Massachusetts state government to define marriage as it chooses are not in the least compromised by the Defense of Marriage Act. Everyone knows that. This is just a typical left-wing tactic: put a bunch of leftists on the federal courts and then bring lawsuits that can be used to impose left-wing policy on the whole country.
    That may be so, but is it right for the states to deny homosexuals those rights?
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Gay marriage, state suing the government...

    Quote Originally Posted by DimondLight View Post
    That may be so, but is it right for the states to deny homosexuals those rights?
    That is an issue to be addressed at the state level, not the federal level. The Constitution is clear:

    Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution:
    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
    The states are allowed to legalize gay marriage if they so choose. I personally oppose gay marriage, but I acknowledge every state's right to address marriage independently, without influence from the federal government.

    It doesn't matter what you think is right or wrong. It matters what the powers of the federal government are. Now as I said above, I happen to think gay marriage is wrong. But I also think it would be wrong for the Supreme Court to overturn gay marriage in Massachusetts, because the Constitution does not give the Supreme Court that power. In the same way, it would be wrong for the Supreme Court to impose gay marriage on Arizona, which recently amended its Constitution to make it illegal.
    Make America great again!

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Gay marriage, state suing the government...

    don't see why gays shouldn't be allowed to marry they have as much right to it as straight couples too i suppose, the only real difference i can see is children, tho gays and lesbians can either adopt or use artificial insemination so that's not too big an issue.
    see how much better society would be better with atheism as the state "religion"? no prejudice against anyone then

  19. #19
    James the Red's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Gay marriage, state suing the government...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheXand View Post
    see how much better society would be better with atheism as the state "religion"? no prejudice against anyone then
    Bull crap, the best state religion is no state religion at all, like the United States.

    State atheism has been a very unpopular idea throughout its history, particularly with the average citizens.
    Besides, its not like atheism itself is very popular either.

    So yeah, retarded idea you have there Sport!


    Anyways, I think gays should be able to married, and they can in my state. Isn't Norway the only country in Europe that allows gay marriage?

  20. #20

    Default Re: Gay marriage, state suing the government...

    Quote Originally Posted by DimondLight View Post
    That may be so, but is it right for the states to deny homosexuals those rights?
    Marriage laws are identical for homos and hetros. A marriage is a man and a women. It doesn't say homos can't get married or that only hetros can. It just says what a marriage is.

    Its an interesting legal angle in that it doesn't need to address the discrimination debate to win. Indeed all that needs to be done is to convince a judge that the DOMA interfers with a states right to have its records respected, which it not to much of a stretch.
    The flip side of that is Massachusetts is issuing a license that DOMA would seem to prohibit.
    Last edited by The Devil's Sergeant; July 10, 2009 at 06:05 AM.

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