How are the Mongols in your campaign?

[Heinz Guderian]

Hi, i was wondering if i could ask those that have played past 1220 and seen the horror of the Mongol invasions, what the Mongols did in their campaign? In mine as the Ghaznivids, they appeared near Samarkhand which they captured and immediately settled it as their capital (i remember in another campaign with 1.05 they didnt settle for a while). They then pushed west, destroying the Khwarezms. I kept some armies close by just in case (even though it would have been a token defence for they would have rolled over me).

They then attacked the Seljuks and quickly gained 5 cities from them. But the Seljuks pulled a sly one and declared a Jihad on them (something i often do in real life) whereupon most of the Muslim world declared war on them and then the tide turned. The Seljuks led the way in reclaiming their lands, but the Ayyubids really pulled their fingers out and went to town on the Mongols.

Now, after about 40 years after their arrival, the Mongols are left with one city on the Black Sea. After many battles and many dead people, the Mongols will soon go the way of the Khwarezms, their fate is sealed.

And i managed to steal some territories too, i only attacked when i knew they were way too busy to fight back, but thats just my chicken-hawk style

[GrandViZ]

And what is your opinion. Should we increase the power of the Mongol forces?

[Heinz Guderian]

And what is your opinion. Should we increase the power of the Mongol forces?

I'm not sure GV. I think they are pretty badass as it is now, but historically they did manage to stroll into Baghdad. I dont think i've played a campaign where the Mongols reached Baghdad. I would like to hear from others about their experiences though.

I know BC doesnt necessarily set out to be as historically accurate as possible (obviously gameplay and enjoyment should take precendent and when all the factors line up then thats heaven), but these are the Mongols. These guys were only stopped at Ain-ul-Jalut near Palestine by Baibars and co. Nothing could resist these guys. Not even 400,000 Khwarezm soldiers. They were also a good counterweight against the Muslims through alliances with Antioch and Armenia. And lets not forget, they set up their IllKhanates soon after conquests (where they even fought "amongst themselves" e.g. Berke and Hulagu).

I reckon giving them 3 or 4 more stacks wouldnt do them any harm. Perhaps even enable them to get to Baghdad. But even if they are left untouched, they are an awesome sight to behold as they descend from the Steppe!

[tup]

Increasing their forces would probably not help against a Jihad. I guess there are plenty of games where they are performing well enough. Having a Horde that can easily conquer half the map would probably be historically quite right, but from a gameplay pov just boring.

On a side note, out of curiosity: What about the Mongol's AoR? Are they even able to recruit their units, or do they have to do with their starting horde and just levies afterwards?

[GrandViZ]

Increasing their forces would probably not help against a Jihad. I guess there are plenty of games where they are performing well enough. Having a Horde that can easily conquer half the map would probably be historically quite right, but from a gameplay pov just boring.

On a side note, out of curiosity: What about the Mongol's AoR? Are they even able to recruit their units, or do they have to do with their starting horde and just levies afterwards?

Currently, they can't and have only access to local units, but I am considering to provide them at least a few provinces where they can recruit their native units.

[swabian]

Currently, they can't and have only access to local units, but I am considering to provide them at least a few provinces where they can recruit their native units.

How about a special AOR for nomads like in Europa Barbarorum? Nomads should be able to produce their most important units everywhere or almost everywhere after producing some buildings (which may simulate migration, military occupation, etc). They should be more powerful however. Do they get continuous scripted support? It's not good if they just get uber armies at the start, they should pose a constant threat with one or the other peak during the game.

[zmv]

How about a special AOR for nomads like in Europa Barbarorum? Nomads should be able to produce their most important units everywhere or almost everywhere after producing some buildings (which may simulate migration, military occupation, etc). They should be more powerful however. Do they get continuous scripted support? It's not good if they just get uber armies at the start, they should pose a constant threat with one or the other peak during the game.

yea...its a good point to give them possibility in Kharezm region to build migration after that they should be available to build some kind of buildings that produce infantry and cavalry!

[Aradius]

A crusade-like reinforcement from the East seems to me the best way. If not, only some Khwarezmian regions should be able to produce Mongol units (Samarqand and Bukhara, for instance).
It would seem a bit ridiculous that the Ghaznavids can never ever recruit their faction units from Kabul, which is 130 km / 80 miles north of Ghazni, but the Mongols be able to recruit nomadic units from heavily urbanized areas from the start...

[Shadowcry]

After seeing the Mongols in action they don't seem to be doing very well. Maybe this is just because the Seljuks manage to overpower them quite often due to their immense size but it remains that the Mongol invasion has been toned down since 1.05. Their units arent Gold Chevrons nor their generals as command or dread strong as before. Additionally with their limited recruitment pool their force eventually seems to dry up.

It would probably be too much work to create a Golden horde or Ilkhanate faction with more native styled recruitment but maybe just overall buffing up stacks with experience and their generals as well in addition to putting four more stacks in khwarezm and 3 or so near saqsin wouldn''t be too much of a buff. Since the Mongol Invasion is supposed to be a real challange where as just taking voer Persia as the Seljuks or Khwarezm should not be enough to let you stop them.

[Emperor of The Great Unknown]

yeah they need to at least surive the the place i also think part of the problem is the fact that there are horde targets that are in the west like jerusalem Konya Baghdad. that are just too far away cause they end up making war with everyone they pass and by the time they get there thier forces are depeleted and end up getting killed by the native faction.

horde targets should stay in the north east of the map so even if they get far when they get conquered at least they will retreat backwards into persia/steppe lands.

[Strelac]

I hear contradicting statements. First post describes pretty good performance, concerning 40 yrs of existence and destruction of Kwarzem, yet, some other state that they need to be more stronger?? I think we are running in the same, I want faction x to be better then faction Y, but weaker then faction Z, while I am playing faction Q...
Has anyone actually battled against them in campaign as a player (as Kwarzem)?

[kelvintyk]

I hear contradicting statements. First post describes pretty good performance, concerning 40 yrs of existence and destruction of Kwarzem, yet, some other state that they need to be more stronger?? I think we are running in the same, I want faction x to be better then faction Y, but weaker then faction Z, while I am playing faction Q...
Has anyone actually battled against them in campaign as a player (as Kwarzem)?

Uh, yeah I was caught by surprised when they entered via samarkand (I didn't have forces there as I was busy fighting the huge seljuks and lost a good half of my empire very quickly. I couldn't redeploy my troops to counter the mongols as that would then leave me open to seljuk stack spam. Well, I eventually went down to 3 provinces and looking at how bad the situation seemed (imagine 20 odd stacks baring down upon my puny army left), I quited the campaign and restarted as georgia. Mongols against the player (if he's not prepared) can be rather devastating in my opinion. But for the AI, they always seem to be able to counter fast enough (stack spam). So, in all I agree with Grandviz's new idea.

[Request a new user name]

I hear contradicting statements. First post describes pretty good performance, concerning 40 yrs of existence and destruction of Kwarzem, yet, some other state that they need to be more stronger?? I think we are running in the same, I want faction x to be better then faction Y, but weaker then faction Z, while I am playing faction Q...
Has anyone actually battled against them in campaign as a player (as Kwarzem)?

I have. Same tactics as before, assassination, though it is on the battlefield now. I simply concentrate all available firepower on the Mongol Generals which kills them in the first 20 seconds after contact, then I mix it up with my battle hardened troops and wreck them.

For the life of me, I still don't get how it is possible for people to even lose to the Mongols. I have a far, far, far, harder time killing the ERE than I do the Mongols.

[CtrlAltDe1337]

Giving them very skilled generals and access to local troops would be a good idea imo, but I don't think you should buff them too much.

edit: I mean their native troops (their local troops), not other faction's units.

[Heinz Guderian]

Giving them very skilled generals and access to local troops would be a good idea imo, but I don't think you should buff them too much.

IIRC, Chingis, Subetei, Chagatai, Jebe, Kubilay et al are all pretty bad-ass ten star/close to ten star generals already, so this may not affect it too much. Giving them access to local troops is however an interesting idea.

[Henri]

IIRC, Chingis, Subetei, Chagatai, Jebe, Kubilay et al are all pretty bad-ass ten star/close to ten star generals already, so this may not affect it too much. Giving them access to local troops is however an interesting idea.

IIRC the Mongols would use locals as arrow fodder on their campaigns. So access to local units would simulate this nicely...

I do of course reserve the right to be wrong

Edit : Just realised that since I'm playing The Abbasid Caliphate AND taking out Georgia I am in line for some Mongol love *shudder*...

[Douchebag]

its 1228 and they finally took one settlement :/

[Shadowcry]

To be Honest most empires by the time the Mongols come are already entrenched, with all the rebel factions gone and atleast one or two factions wiped off the face of the earth and a couple more on their way to join them. As such we see super empires such as the Seljuks, Turks or ERE Ayyubids and whoever wins in India zerging out. Being able to field atleast ten or more full stacks at a time and the Mongols should be able to deal with that not just come in wreck some stuff and die a few things later. They should be a Global and permanent faction that should destroy the balance of power. In most of the games I have played the Mongols have not remained or grown long enough to make a huge difference. Not just Khwarezm should be affected but also Afghanistan, Persia, the Steppe and other areas too.

[Douchebag]

you guys should give mongolians 1 mill denarii and 20 more stacks after the first wave they'll probably have enough force to reach Jerusalem. that would be freakin awesome.

[tup]

I don't think you'd find that freakin awesome if you try playing Khwarezm.
I know I like persian factions and I hate the Mongols. It's tedious enough preparing for the invasion, with the AoR that's even more difficult.
Of course if you play ERE and the Mongols get defeated it's easy thinking they'd need a buff.