Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 52

Thread: Are you converting to Christianity in your campaigns?

  1. #21
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Sverige
    Posts
    1,104

    Default Re: Are you converting to Christianity in your campaigns?

    Oh loosen up some, both of you

    I have not sneered at anything Martok (I don’t sneer that way, that was nothing, rest assured), I was simply pointing out that sticking to Buddhism is obviously a viable alternative as well. The monk-example is/was some simple basis for that alternative (for those of you who are curious; I decided to put my own example to the test; no upgrades, default values all over, 1 monk-formation vs. 3 musket-formations, 5 battles, open field, overcast and fine weather all the time – I won all 5 battles on expert level. I even tried an additional zero-honor battle as well and still I won regardless – hence monks don’t need any upgrades to pull it off. I’ve done it, so can everybody else. So, 1 monk can obviously beat 3 muskets, regardless of any upgrades. Thus the basis for the monks is real alright - it’s pretty much a matter of fact if we apply some decent tactics. If we try it the other way around the AI simply retreats as far as I can tell). We have so far have had a pretty heavy focus on Christianity and much detail about it (which is great BTW), much thanks to you two, how about we examine the other option as well, drawbacks and advantages etc., shall we? Broaden the perspective a bit? After all, people can choose either way, so why not?

    And Caravel, kindly leave me and my supposed capacities to play the game out of your analysis and this thread from now on.

    - Cheers

  2. #22

    Default Re: Are you converting to Christianity in your campaigns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    for those of you who are curious; I decided to put my own example to the test; no upgrades, default values all over, 1 monk-formation vs. 3 musket-formations, 5 battles, open field, overcast and fine weather all the time – I won all 5 battles on expert level. I even tried an additional zero-honor battle as well and still I won regardless – hence monks don’t need any upgrades to pull it off. I’ve done it, so can everybody else. So, 1 monk can obviously beat 3 muskets, regardless of any upgrades. Thus the basis for the monks is real alright - it’s pretty much a matter of fact if we apply some decent tactics. If we try it the other way around the AI simply retreats as far as I can tell.
    That's pretty much a no brainer. I'm afraid you've missed the point entirely in comparing an elite melee unit to a non elite teppo unit. I also think you've misunderstood my point about upgrades. Monks are deadly without them, but I was making the point that any player can deploy souped up Monks with bumrush tactics (think Huscarles in MTW and you'll get the picture). My point is that teppo require a different style and approach in order to succeed in battle. Most players here know the pros and cons of monks - but a lot of players discount teppo, due to lack of experience with them, as you have done in this thread.

    The simple fact is this: You have obviously tried and failed with christianity/teppos, this does not mean that everyone is going to fail. I am doing pretty well with STW/MI 1.02 with the (much higher difficulty) STW 1.12 stats on hard difficulty deploying teppo and winning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    We have so far have had a pretty heavy focus on Christianity and much detail about it (which is great BTW), much thanks to you two, how about we examine the other option as well, drawbacks and advantages etc., shall we? Broaden the perspective a bit? After all, people can choose either way, so why not?
    Unless I'm very much mistaken the thread is about converting to christianity? Pros and cons have already been covered. I've covered the pros extensively. The cons are religious unrest (which I've explained how to counter - in depth) and the lack of Monks.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Are you converting to Christianity in your campaigns?

    2 quick questions:

    1) If you've converted to Christianity, can you ever convert back to Buddhism? If so, how?

    2) I've heard people say that sometimes the Dutch don't even appear. It's 1577 in my campaign and still no Dutch traders (am playing on normal). When are they supposed to start appearing, or is it true that in some cases they will not even appear? I ask because I don't really want to convert, but I'd like to use the gun units.

    rep me if you like my posts, and it's highly likely you'll get some back

  4. #24
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Sverige
    Posts
    1,104

    Default Re: Are you converting to Christianity in your campaigns?

    Quote Originally Posted by el_dude View Post
    1) If you've converted to Christianity, can you ever convert back to Buddhism? If so, how?

    2) I've heard people say that sometimes the Dutch don't even appear. It's 1577 in my campaign and still no Dutch traders (am playing on normal). When are they supposed to start appearing, or is it true that in some cases they will not even appear? I ask because I don't really want to convert, but I'd like to use the gun units.

    Hi El_dude....

    1. You’ll need to build a Buddhist-temple and then you are in business, that is what the "guide-people" used to say at least - never done it myself, so I don’t know the exact effects after that is completed. Maybe you could report it in?

    2. I think we should save it to the thread you set up for the matter. It is easier that way and it generates less confusion (here and elsewhere).

    - Cheers

  5. #25
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Sverige
    Posts
    1,104

    Default Re: Are you converting to Christianity in your campaigns?

    Ok, I say this as a plain member and nothing else. Here we go....

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel View Post
    That's pretty much a no brainer.
    So you claim.... Well, the game doesn’t seem to conform much to that opinion on expert-difficulty and the 3 vs.1 monk-scenario and I seriously doubt that the Hard-difficulty is that much easier. Try it people and put it to the test and see for yourselves if it is true – as far as I can tell it is not (unless the weather is particularly poor). Charging just wildly head-on, as suggested, appears to basically result in that the monk-unit will get shot to pieces by the three musket units as soon as the weather is good enough (default values or zero honor). So I guess that the claim was not that well founded then? (Rhetorical, see STW)


    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel View Post
    I'm afraid you've missed the point entirely in comparing an elite melee unit to a non elite teppo unit.
    Think whatever you like about it – I don’t care. If you don’t like that comparison feel free to start a new thread where it is specifically stipulated as forbidden to do such things, knock yourself out. However, in this thread you do not dictate focus or what is the point, like it or not – that’s just how things are, deal with it...

    Now, the stipulated topic of this thread makes it extremely relevant in comparing the two unique troops we actually get as a result of our choice of either Christianity or Buddhism. Why? Because battle is a big part of the game and it is clearly warranted to examine what we actually get in battle-power as a consequence of our choices - since that is likely to influence our final choice somehow (just as other aspects are also relevant on other levels in the game). There is little to argue about the monks being superior to the teppos in sheer battle-power and overall capacity, it would be just ridiculous to ignore that reality just because somebody might not like it. As far as battle goes it is thus obviously more advantageous to stick to Buddhism. Plainly put, we can build stronger armies due to more battle-power per unit available, period. However, that does not mean that somebody can’t or should not be allowed to enjoy playing the “other side”, now does it? People are obviously free to play whatever side they want, for whatever reasons – regardless what others may think about it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel View Post
    I also think you've misunderstood my point about upgrades. Monks are deadly without them, but I was making the point that any player can deploy souped up Monks with bumrush tactics (think Huscarles in MTW and you'll get the picture).
    Well, as far as your upgrade-points go, it doesn’t seem to be very consistent. At one point you suggest that the monk needs to be “a high honour and super upgraded” in order to kill teppos and then when it turned out that they obviously don’t need any upgrades you instead maintain that monks are deadly without them. Well I guess it is true that they are deadly regardless, but I fail to see any point in pointing out that they should be “a high honour and super upgraded Monk” then, since they won’t become any less deadly with upgrades and high honor, now will they? No matter what you decide to stick with in the end, it won’t change the constant that monks will beat teppos in a direct comparison. - One on one, 2 vs.1 and even against 3 muskets vs.1 monk-formation (possibly even more then that). That reality is indeed something worthwhile to consider at the crossroads of Buddhism and Christianity. As are the other strategic factors as well, since such stuff should be considered also.


    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel View Post
    My point is that teppo require a different style and approach in order to succeed in battle.
    That is ridiculously obvious and if that really was your big point you should had said so in the first place and saved us all a lot of time….


    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel View Post
    Most players here know the pros and cons of monks - but a lot of players discount teppo, due to lack of experience with them, as you have done in this thread.
    Where exactly are all the players that supposedly lack of the “necessary” experience for teppos? There is nothing in the game as far I can tell that provides any grounds for that ridiculous bunch of crap (expressed in the finest use of Shakespearian English). Let’s see something to back it up for a change, since nothing of any kind has been forwarded so far. - Your word for it is not good enough, it never is.

    Now, it’s no secret that I personally hold little love for teppos in general since they are gunpowder-units (As I said before; I never liked any of those, totally regardless of the game-characteristics, it is the theme as such I loathe). However that does not mean that I or anybody else can’t handle them, now does it? After all, teppos are plain ranged troops and there is nothing fancy about it at all. Anybody can handle them regardless of the stubbornly insisted claim that some “special” skills and experience are required to use them – that is just plain silly and there is nothing anywhere that provides any substance to it at all as far as I can tell, neither in the game or elsewhere. – Teppos/muskets, just like other ranged troops, are heavily dependent on the weather, which makes them handicapped in any sort of poor weather compared to other troops that are not dependent on any weather, as monks for instance – how hard can it be to fathom? It would be just plain ridiculous that I should be some sort of ultra-super-expert on playing the game, since I have no problems at all with handling teppos/muskets - while everybody else supposedly are struggling with the fictitious difficulties about them. At any rate, if people still prefer to like teppos/muskets – excellent, fine and ok. I actually don’t care.


    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel View Post
    The simple fact is this: You have obviously tried and failed with christianity/teppos...
    Well, that statement is a plain lie; let’s see you prove it, shall we? Oh, that’s right - you can’t.... Now, that is a fact. There is nothing to back it up or prove it anywhere (short of your personal word for it of course), let alone any means for you personally to gather any actual information on the matter.

    As for facts in general, these are usually proven beyond any doubt first and then they are dubbed and regarded as facts. Facts also need to be falsifiable to be regarded as facts on conventional terms (don’t take my word for it, check it out). I guess somebody must have fouled up big-time on those parts. - No thanks, leave the personal smearing and lies about me safely back home were it belongs and let’s stick to the actual topic here instead. Besides, if we need to resort to lies in order to comply with our personal urges to somehow question the basis of others at all costs there will not be an end to it – it is jumping straight into the abyss and any point of discussing anything will be lost, completely....


    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel View Post
    I am doing pretty well with STW/MI 1.02 with the (much higher difficulty) STW 1.12 stats on hard difficulty deploying teppo and winning.
    Well good for you, what’s all the fuss about? I also played the bulk of my campaigns in the “oh so” difficult version and that on expert difficulty so I fail to see what is so darn remarkable about you personally winning on hard-difficulty? And yes, I managed just fine with the teppos as well, and what’s so fancy about that? (Rhetorical, see STW)


    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel View Post
    Unless I'm very much mistaken the thread is about converting to christianity? Pros and cons have already been covered. I've covered the pros extensively. The cons are religious unrest (which I've explained how to counter - in depth) and the lack of Monks.
    This is from the first post of this thread....

    Quote Originally Posted by Xerrop View Post
    To bring some life into this nearly dead forum, I´ll start a new topic:
    How do you deal with the Portuguese and the Christendom?

    Do you convert to this new religion and start building churches?
    Or do you remain Buddhist in your campaigns?
    So... I’d guess you were very much mistaken then....


    It wouldn’t be the first time either, now would it? - Other then that, yeah it is good that you have tried your best to cover Christianity in this thread; I have little reservations to that at least.

    It also seems that some things are not mentioned so far, I might as well fill in some of the blanks; churches are obviously not free of charge, 800 koku or something like that, and we need six churches before we get any chance to build a cathedral as well, and then we get to collect income and recruit teppos as a Christian. In practical terms; 2000 kokus to get the monks and 5800 koku (excluding port) to get the Christian teppos - not counting the differences in building-time to set it up, which is faster in the Buddhist-case as far as I can tell (its all right there in the game). Do the math on your own people and be the judge of which strikes “you” as more advantageous on a strategic level? Trade and cathedral-income, religious uprisings, monk-bonuses vs. Christian and Buddhist foes, the Dutch etc. etc. are of course yet other factors to also consider at the crossroads of Christianity and Buddhism....


    For the record:

    People can obviously play either way, and personally I don’t care if somebody chooses either side. If somebody like Christianity and teppos – excellent, fine and ok. If monks and Buddhism are your thing the same applies right there. After X campaigns we are likely to try the “other side” out of sheer curiosity and eventually we will find the alternative we are personally most comfortable with for various reasons, depending on what our priorities are and that is probably the end of it. I know that it is for me at least. Thus I will now bail out of this thread as an active poster, since whatever I have to say in that capacity has already been said at this point.

    - Cheers

  6. #26

    Default Re: Are you converting to Christianity in your campaigns?

    Quite a tirade there... it's actually not really worth responding to because:

    a) It's a computer game.

    b) You have quite laughably misunderstood my posts and deliberately twisted my words and missed my entire point. I've been playing the game and posting on TW forums since long before you - I don't need any lessons on STW and MTW game mechanics thanks.

    c) It's too long winded and full of repetition and irrelevancies that I don't have the time to pick over. In general forumites tend not to respond to such posts because they are too much effort to read and are really not worth reading anyway, as they add nothing new. Now if you want to interpret this as you're "winning the argument" then go ahead, think that if you like.

    d) You're clearly on a personal power crusade in this forum - and I don't intend to be any part of it. It's not me trying to dictate what's discussed here - that's you. Take a long look in the mirror and remember who your friends in the TW community used to be and why that has now changed.

    -Edit: I come here only to help out fellow STW/MTW players as this is not really possible under your "regime" I will move on - no loss to me.

    So have a nice day.

    Goodbye
    Last edited by caravel; August 01, 2009 at 06:17 PM.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Are you converting to Christianity in your campaigns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Xerrop, do what ever is most fun for you...

    Personally it seems like a lot of fuss to get some access to some measly teppos. Tactically speaking these are not that bad but they are hardly decisive or crucial either for the game. A single unit of warrior-monks will pretty easily slaughter at least 3 units of muskets (550 kokus vs. 750 kokus, 1 unit vs. 3 units, and quality vs. quantity). You do the math Xerrop, it is not really necessary to bother with Christianity unless you think it is particularly fun to do so.
    Oh, I do what seems right to me - when looking on my signature you can guess that I´ll follow my pope and the holy roman church. When the Holy See asks for help to convert some japanese I can´t resist to follow him.

    But building six churches for getting the cathedral (income) is nearly impossible or at least a long task with my low koku income, due to the large army upkeep.
    Last edited by Xerrop; August 04, 2009 at 04:30 AM.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Are you converting to Christianity in your campaigns?

    forgive my noobness but what on earth is a teppo?

    rep me if you like my posts, and it's highly likely you'll get some back

  9. #29

    Default Re: Are you converting to Christianity in your campaigns?

    Teppo = Guns (means the Arquebuses in this case)

  10. #30

    Default Re: Are you converting to Christianity in your campaigns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xerrop View Post
    But building six churches for getting the cathedral (income) is nearly impossible or at least a long task with my low koku income, due to the large army upkeep.
    You may be trying to support too many troops? Use Shinobi and a single Yari/Teppo Ashigaru unit to secure the back water provinces and keep your main army near to the front lines. Push for the easily defensive choke points and then lock down while you tech up your key provinces. Once you have six churches your cathedral can go up. Build it in one of your backwater provinces away from the fontlines.

    Economy can be easily maximised in Shogun by building the farmland upgrades in only the "rich farmlands" povinces and building ports everywhere. This is another reason to accept the Portuguese. The ports allow the construction of the trading posts, which give a steady income (not fluctuating like the rice harvest). Once the Dutch arrive you can builf the Dutch trading posts as well to double the trade income. Do not demolish the Portuguese traders when the Dutch arrive - simply build the Dutch trading posts ASAP.

    If you still doubt the strategy then simply check out my Takeda AAR over at the .org (note the koku at campaign finish): http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=111219

  11. #31

    Default Re: Are you converting to Christianity in your campaigns?

    I NEVER convert to christianity, and i ignore they're offers. If i convert to Christianity, i get rioting from my cities.

    Besides, if you convert you lose some of the BEST units, like Warrior Monks, and you get the really lame ones: Arquebusiers which SUCK in every weather except normal.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Are you converting to Christianity in your campaigns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eesolk View Post
    If i convert to Christianity, i get rioting from my cities.
    This can be controlled easily by deploying Shinobi and more importantly, catholic priests in your provinces.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eesolk View Post
    Besides, if you convert you lose some of the BEST units, like Warrior Monks
    You lose one unit type: Warrior Monks. Personally I can easily win every campaign with Monks so their absence doesn't overly worry me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eesolk View Post
    and you get the really lame ones: Arquebusiers which SUCK in every weather except normal.
    Matter of opinion. Their usage and deployment is different from other units, but when deployed to good effect they can turn the tide of a battle and it is very satisfying to see the enemy shot down and routing. Yes you can rush the enemy with Monks but that gets rather dull after a while.

    Apart from this you also gain the massive cathedral and trading post incomes - so in effect it's a trade off.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Are you converting to Christianity in your campaigns?

    I usualy do. But thats because I play as Oda quite alot, ashigaru and muskets behind them :3 and the money boost from churches is nice. However I don't usualy do it with the other clans.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Are you converting to Christianity in your campaigns?

    Originally posted by Axalon
    (for those of you who are curious; I decided to put my own example to the test; no upgrades, default values all over, 1 monk-formation vs. 3 musket-formations, 5 battles, open field, overcast and fine weather all the time – I won all 5 battles on expert level. I even tried an additional zero-honor battle as well and still I won regardless – hence monks don’t
    need any upgrades to pull it off. I’ve done it, so can everybody else. So, 1 monk can obviously beat 3 muskets, regardless of any upgrades. Thus the basis for the monks is real alright - it’s pretty much a matter of fact if we apply some decent tactics.
    Eeerm, you mean you tested them versus the AI? Try again against a human opponent and see what you get. The AI does not set his teppos in hold formation/hold position and off skirmish mode which makes them run like headless chickens when approached by enemy troops. A human player would have delivered coordinated volleys in the face of the Monks and it is possible that they wouldn't even make contact as it happens often in mp.

    In addition teppos especially in MI are extremely powerful and can obliterate anything in their path including Monks when properly handled and supported. They are not melee troops and are not intended to be used in such a way. You seem to have misunderstood them altogether and not being familiar with their uses which are crucial and can easily be battle winning.

  15. #35
    Hound of Ulster's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Lead the forces of the ShahinShah
    Posts
    1,217

    Default Re: Are you converting to Christianity in your campaigns?

    I tried converting when I played the Oda, but it back-fired and I lost the campaign because of it
    'Only the Dead Have Seen the End of War' Plato

    'Killing is Negotiating' A militiaman in 'Blackhawk Down'

  16. #36

    Default Re: Are you converting to Christianity in your campaigns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hound of Ulster View Post
    I tried converting when I played the Oda, but it back-fired and I lost the campaign because of it
    Care to elaborate?

  17. #37
    Laetus
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Karachi
    Posts
    10

    Default Re: Are you converting to Christianity in your campaigns?

    Nice one, Hound of Ulster! "Back fired."

    To me, converting is a means of getting at those noisy guns. They 're impressive, new and an easy exploit.

    Real warlord mentality - I can't help it; part of the roleplay.

    BTW Caravel: http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=111219

    That's one epic thread there; I'll try to get to read it all. Thanks for the link.
    Last edited by grimoire; December 09, 2009 at 08:57 AM.

  18. #38

    Default Re: Are you converting to Christianity in your campaigns?

    Hello grimoire,

    Glad to oblige. There are several more campaigns in that forum far more epic than my own humble effort. They are definitely much more worth having a look at. Be sure to check them out. The best ones are the ones I've moved out to the AAR forum (the links are still there).

  19. #39
    Laetus
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Karachi
    Posts
    10

    Default Re: Are you converting to Christianity in your campaigns?

    Thank you, Caravel.

  20. #40

    Icon6 Re: Are you converting to Christianity in your campaigns?

    [QUOTE=Caravel;5540182]If you do convert, remember to train lots of Christian Emissaries (Catholic Priests) instead of standard Emissaries. QUOTE]

    Yes that's what I do sometimes. But what I really do with missionaries is to convert people and p*ss off other Buddhists clans. More Christians+Buddhist leader=Christian rebellion. If the province became rebel I invade it straight away.

    If my Christian province got invaded by Buddhists the local peasants might rise up that is if they did.

    Only bad thing about being Christian is the zealous Mori clan (or other clans made religious by the AI) will try and attack you. You'll also find it difficult to maintain some temples and provinces because of your religion.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •