Death

[Dr. Oza]

i have read many many articles, and books on philosophy, and talked to many people who have read and analyzed even more, yet today i found out a man i knew died, i never even met him, but he was my father's friend, and his life story was the saddest i ever heard

and i realized then how the seeming cliche notion of death is so true, as soon as i heard,i thought about how death can strike at any moment, and to clarify, this mans life has been EXTREMELY unlucky/unfortunate so far, yet he was about to prosper financially which had brought him a lot of happiness, yet he died, out of nowhere, just as things seemed to be looking up for him

how does one deal with such cirumstances?, how does one react to death? that seeming force that binds all and creeps upon one without warning or care for pre existing events...

i will not tell this mans tale here, but be assured that as far as i know, it is one of the saddest ive heard...

[Vladimir Lenin]

how does one deal with such cirumstances?, how does one react to death? that seeming force that binds all and creeps upon one without warning or care for pre existing events...

1. It depends, the death of a loved one, is a hard thing to go through. Most people grieve, for the fact they will never see that person *ever* again. Some cry, some go through periods of self-medication, feelings of outrageous anger at God, and some never fully deal with it.

2. That depends on the person. Typically the response is despondence, depression, and grief.

While all people feel the above (#2) for Theists, they view death as being bittersweet. Bitter in that a person is gone from the earth, and sweet that the person is in salvation. Funerals, become for Christians a celebration of the person's life, with the knowledge that they are safe with God.

Funerals for Atheists, are celebrations of the life of the individual.

Death can strike quite unexpectedly, especially when it's someone close to us. One of the hardest parts of life ironically, is coming to terms with death.

It seems as if this really affected you quite personally, if you feel upset about Death/Dying, you might wish to consider talking with your Dad or Mom, Religious Leader (if you have one), or Counselor.

[Mr. Pink]

I feel sad if it's a loved one, then I forget about it and move on. Death is part of life and it will continue to happen, best just get on with things.

Life goes on.

[basics]

Danny_C_1,

Couldn't resist this, life does go on, but you must be in deep mourning judging by the company you keep.

[Rich86]

Death is unfortunate but neccesary.

I of course get sad when a relative dies - but I remind myself that they must die simply because people need to die in order for there to be room for the next generation. I also remind myself that it's better to be glad that they lived, rather than sorry that they died.

[Tankbuster]

Dealing with death is one of those essential parts of life. I've seen a lot of family members dying, and it's always very sad. But I know that they're happy that they were alive.
The most beautiful thing about life is that it's going to end. That's what makes it so much worth. That's why you should savour it.

I also remind myself that it's better to be glad that they lived, rather than sorry that they died.

Yes.

[Aetius]

The most beautiful thing about life is that it's going to end. That's what makes it so much worth. That's why you should savour it.

Ah...the bittersweet Gift of Man.

[Taiji]

It sounds like he was quite lucky at the end there. Personally I'd like to die while feeling optimistic about my life. It's one of the points I can appreciate about religions that offer an 'after-life' to look forward to, that they give something to feel optimistic about right at the end.

[Tankbuster]

It sounds like he was quite lucky at the end there. Personally I'd like to die while feeling optimistic about my life. It's one of the points I can appreciate about religions that offer an 'after-life' to look forward to, that they give something to feel optimistic about right at the end.

The big downside being then, of course, that they come to see the after-life as the actual goal. And they see the only life they have as a test.

[Taiji]

The big downside being then, of course, that they come to see the after-life as the actual goal. And they see the only life they have as a test.

I agree that it's a ed up strategy until just before you die, when it starts to bear fruit.

Funny (if you switch off compassion for a second) that some people spend their lives preparing to be dead, something which they know absolutely nothing about. So much life wasted on mental conditioning to make death more palatable. Are they just being cowardly? I bet a lot of them are.

I doubt they realise that the afterlife delusion is just a coping mechanism that allows them to keep their cowardice. Most likely.

Well the fact that I realise it doesn't make it reality... we'll see if they are right but only if they are right. If they're wrong then we won't be around to find out.

(BTW I'd define cowardice as how we react to our fear, not fear itself.)

[Tankbuster]

I agree that it's a ed up strategy until just before you die, when it starts to bear fruit.

I would say that it's a ed up strategy, period.
One of the toughest deaths for me in my family, was my grandfather. And that was because he believed so strongly in an after-life that he refused to say goodbye, because "he was going to see us all again anyway". I would have felt so much better if I had been able to decently say goodbye, but he just wouldn't accept that this was all that there was.

But on the other hand, anything that makes you die with a smile is 'worth it', in its way. But I'm just one of those guys who likes brutal honesty; I don't care much for feel-good-illusions. Many people don't like that though, and I respect that.

Funny (if you switch off compassion for a second) that some people spend their lives preparing to be dead, something which they know absolutely nothing about. So much life wasted on mental conditioning to make death more palatable. Are they just being cowardly? I bet a lot of them are.

I doubt they realise that the afterlife delusion is just a coping mechanism that allows them to keep their cowardice. Most likely.

Well the fact that I realise it doesn't make it reality... we'll see if they are right but only if they are right. If they're wrong then we won't be around to find out.

(BTW I'd define cowardice as how we react to our fear, not fear itself.)

True, true.
The thing that interests me the most is that they don't actually think about what this eternal life would be like. It's a poorly thought-out fantasy so that they don't have to feel like the end is near, but they don't actually follow the consequences of their logic.
Eternal life wouldn't be a gift! It would arguably be the worst kind of punishment for a sentient being! Sure, maybe I'd have fun during the first thousands of years, maybe even for the first million years. But what about the next million years? And the million after that? And the billion after that? And the trillion after that? And then I'd still have trillions of years left, and then I'd still be nowhere; I would still have eternity ahead of me!
Anyone who wants to accept this deal... well, their call. I wouldn't go near it.

That depends on the religion of course. If your christian or another religion that believes in some form of heaven life is like a lead ball. You throw it in the air, and the higher it goes the longer the life i suppose, and as it comes down it has to withstand any force acting against it and keep intact until it hits the ground. Thats death and you go straight to wherever your suppose to go. The ball doesnt bounce is my point

True. Life is just a test for them.

In hinduism or any other religion where death is the end of life, then life is more like a tennis ball. Throw up, comes down, hits ground (dead) and goes back up again (life)

The relevance of this is this second one seems to be the more realistic and optimistic rather than scientific. Id support the second idea through hell and high water simply because i know people who have died, my friends, my family, and its the idea that comforts me. I could never go about my life knowing that their essence, their spirit and character arent out there somewhere living life all over again, because life is a gift and death... equally so.

That's a good point. There are many versions of the after-life. This one doesn't make my heart beat faster either, though. First of all, as I said, I don't give in to feel-good stories (by the way, why would this be a 'realistic' view? It's a little bit optimistic, but that's about it).
What bothers me about this one is just that, just like the other ones, there's a fundamental contempt for life. In this case: life is just one of the many lives you're getting.
"Your life isn't going the way you want to? Relax. Sit tight. A couple of decades and you'll get another shot."
Doesn't really appeal to me. If you're not happy with your life, change it now.

The best thing about this ideas is that, luckily, people aren't congruent with them.

[Taiji]

I would say that it's a ed up strategy, period.
One of the toughest deaths for me in my family, was my grandfather. And that was because he believed so strongly in an after-life that he refused to say goodbye, because "he was going to see us all again anyway". I would have felt so much better if I had been able to decently say goodbye, but he just wouldn't accept that this was all that there was.

But on the other hand, anything that makes you die with a smile is 'worth it', in its way. But I'm just one of those guys who likes brutal honesty; I don't care much for feel-good-illusions. Many people don't like that though, and I respect that.

Honesty as a form of brutality... this seems like an odd spin but yeah, me too I guess.

The example you give of your relative's denial making it hard for the entire family to continue without using the same pathological mechanism (denial), seems to me to be a good example of the ways in which religion can be insidious and pathological. I hadn't really thought about the effect it has on others in this way, thankyou for raising it for me.

I had a friend tell me a counter story of how he (an atheist) got some comfort from his friend's religion. His friend was dying and seemed quite content with the fact. This contentment spread to my atheist friend. There was no denial of the reality of what was about to happen and it's impact on their relationship. Instead there's an odd situation where the person in trouble is telling the onlookers not to worry. When there is nothing you can do to save someone from a problem they face and they tell you not to worry, it becomes pretty obvious that any guilt about inaction is inappropriate. Guilt+bereavement=

True, true.
The thing that interests me the most is that they don't actually think about what this eternal life would be like. It's a poorly thought-out fantasy so that they don't have to feel like the end is near, but they don't actually follow the consequences of their logic.
Eternal life wouldn't be a gift! It would arguably be the worst kind of punishment for a sentient being! Sure, maybe I'd have fun during the first thousands of years, maybe even for the first million years. But what about the next million years? And the million after that? And the billion after that? And the trillion after that? And then I'd still have trillions of years left, and then I'd still be nowhere; I would still have eternity ahead of me!
Anyone who wants to accept this deal... well, their call. I wouldn't go near it.

"who want's to live forever" (implying noone) such a great lyric. I am ashamed to like Queen .... I can't believe I am typing this admission ... but that song is on the money. Only an ignorant man wants to be forced to live forever.

And yet life, while we have it, is the most valuable thing in our world. It underwrites our world, our reality. I'm certainly in favor of us having more of it but also in favor of people having the right to stop it when they choose.

[Dead Sun]

The big downside being then, of course, that they come to see the after-life as the actual goal. And they see the only life they have as a test.

That depends on the religion of course. If your christian or another religion that believes in some form of heaven life is like a lead ball. You throw it in the air, and the higher it goes the longer the life i suppose, and as it comes down it has to withstand any force acting against it and keep intact until it hits the ground. Thats death and you go straight to wherever your suppose to go. The ball doesnt bounce is my point

In hinduism or any other religion where death is the end of life, then life is more like a tennis ball. Throw up, comes down, hits ground (dead) and goes back up again (life)

The relevance of this is this second one seems to be the more realistic and optimistic rather than scientific. Id support the second idea through hell and high water simply because i know people who have died, my friends, my family, and its the idea that comforts me. I could never go about my life knowing that their essence, their spirit and character arent out there somewhere living life all over again, because life is a gift and death... equally so.

[Taiji]

I could never go about my life knowing that their essence, their spirit and character arent out there somewhere living life all over again, because life is a gift and death... equally so.

Why not? What would happen to you that would certainly kill you if you didn't have this belief?

I smell sentimental melodrama. I bet General Sun would not approve.

It sounds like a use of religion to avoid painful emotional growth. You cannot come to terms with the death of loved ones unless you let them go. So you pretend they are still around to avoid the pain of dealing with the reality that they are no longer with you.

If I am right then I am on dubious ground. Your lying to yourself harms noone except yourself most of the time. Plus it is providing some comfort to you. Comfort or learning? You chose comfort.

A good friend wishes on you the kind of adversity that will help you grow.

I don't want friends lying to me in order to make me feel better.

[Hippolord]

Once when i was 9, when my setp-grandfather died, i sat in my room and cried for 14 hours straight...Great guy...

But i decided that from that day on i was done feeling mad, and i was done feeling angry. I knew i could never stop being sad, but i decide that rahter reject saddness, i would embrace it, and everything that brings, and reject only the anger. It took me a while to get into it, but the last time i got angry was like 8 years ago.

I've gotten anoyed with people, but never full blown angry.

But besides that, i have had huge contact with death in my family. My Family is very big, so people kinda die alot. This year alone i have had an uncle die from alchol (Liver poisoning), and an aunt die from Lung Cancer. Luckily i didn;t really know either of them that well, but i got all kinds of death stories. So i guess i;ve learned that it's okay to be sad, and ot cry, it's actually good for you. Just don;t let the saddness control you.

[Dead Sun]

Why not? What would happen to you that would certainly kill you if you didn't have this belief?

I smell sentimental melodrama. I bet General Sun would not approve.

It sounds like a use of religion to avoid painful emotional growth. You cannot come to terms with the death of loved ones unless you let them go. So you pretend they are still around to avoid the pain of dealing with the reality that they are no longer with you.

If I am right then I am on dubious ground. Your lying to yourself harms noone except yourself most of the time. Plus it is providing some comfort to you. Comfort or learning? You chose comfort.

A good friend wishes on you the kind of adversity that will help you grow.

I don't want friends lying to me in order to make me feel better.

Said couldnt go about my life, never said i'd kill myself or anything like that. I'd be a very different person, which, at the moment, i cant imagine.
I have learnt to let them go, i know ill never see them again in this life or the next. They are dead, i can say it and i dont change nor do my ideals.

Tankbuster: In relation to the "realistic" point, i mean that the idea of the spirit passing on into another body appears to be a lot more realistic than a horde of spent spirits massing in "Hell" or "Heaven" or their other respective religions. I didnt mean realistic as in "for real." I'm still coming to terms with the idea of reincarnation, and i frankly can't imagine a more optimistic view on death. As Taiji said, this appears to be avoiding the pains of death, but i know they are dead. I cry for them when i saying goodbye for the last time, and i mourn for weeks after. The pain never moves, but it certainly decreases. Thats probably why war heroes and soldiers are... a little more depressed or eccentric than you'd expect.

[Chaigidel]

Death is the holiest thing in the universe, other than Life. It should be honored, understood, and accepted

[Bongfu]

Death is the holiest thing in the universe, other than Life. It should be honored, understood, and accepted

Why should one honor death if it was a life that never did anything?

How can we understand it, if no one has ever experienced death and lived?

Why should we accept it, when we have to accept life is all we have to work with?

[Watchman]

Why should we accept it, when we have to accept life is all we have to work with?

Because *not* accepting it as the natural ultimate fate of all life would be pretty deluded and pointless ? Denial isn't healthy.

[Helm]