Wellington v Napoleon - Greatest General

[The Donz]

True. I don't like that much to biased typical mel gibson movie either. Battle scenes are nice though, the rest is crap.

Now, back to topic all of us.

[RomanGuy]

Well, for this thread I voted for Napoleon because he was far superior to Wellington. But I don't think there could be a greatest general of all time. The nature of warfare and tactics changed so much throughout history that comparing generals is like comparing fruits and vegetables. Napoleon and Frederick were the greatest generals of their time, as were Alexander and Hannibal in theirs, and Patton and Rommel in theirs as well. With a few similarties, many of these generals also used different tactics to achieve their victories, so debating who is the best general should mean debating their tactics just as much.

[Stildawn]

he was far superior to Wellington

I dont agree with that.... The more Ive looked into each battle from both of them... The more I believe Wellington in a slug fest would take out more wins against Napoleon.

[Amaz]

Augustus III??? what about him?

[Stildawn]

Lol Im off to Wiki to read up on him lol.

[RuleBritannia]

There is no "Greatest General in History, but there were "Greatest Generals of the Time".

Julius Caesar, Hannibal, John Churchill, General Wolfe (used General because I forgot his first name), Banastre Tarleton, Sir Henry Clinton, Charles Earl Cornwallis, Horatio Nelson, Arthur Wellesly (Duke of Wellington), Napoleon Bonaparte, Winston Churchill (he did organize military plans), Bernard Montgomery, George Patton, Erwin Rommel, and others.

[33orion77]

First, you need to have to define what you are defining as " the greatest General". You can compare the number of battle they took part in and their win/loss ratio. You can compare their ability ( leader of man vs stategist) or their contribution to the realm of warfare.

I believe Napoleon was the greatest general but is also my favorite... Napoleon didn't just brough the corps system but also made revolutionary use of artillery. He used formations like the mixed order and the attack column formation. Napoleon forced all europe to rethink warfare. he brought innovation and influenced history much more...

I also believe that the general staff of Napoleon was not the best at waterloo when can always say what if... what if Soult or Murat would have been part of the battle...

[Amaz]

sorry... not August III... I think it was Fredrick Augustus I lol

[RomanGuy]

I dont agree with that.... The more Ive looked into each battle from both of them... The more I believe Wellington in a slug fest would take out more wins against Napoleon.

I just said that because in the only major battle that they fought each other, Waterloo, Wellington was on the verge of being beaten, but then the Prussians arrived on Napoleon's flank with another 100,000 men. I don't think Wellington would have won without the Prussians.

I also think that since Napoleon beat the number of Allied troops and generals that he did, he could beat Wellington too.

@ RuleBritannia- I actually thought the title of the thread was "Greatest General of All Time." Ha, I think it was late when I posted that.

[Amaz]

same here... I would've gone for Fredrick II of Prussia....

[Juvenal]

Napoleon didn't just brough the corps system but also made revolutionary use of artillery. He used formations like the mixed order and the attack column formation. Napoleon forced all europe to rethink warfare. he brought innovation and influenced history much more...

I also believe that the general staff of Napoleon was not the best at waterloo when can always say what if... what if Soult or Murat would have been part of the battle...

It was Gribeauval's artillery system. Napoleon's strengths were his charisma, his energy and decisiveness, and his strategic grasp. He assembled battle doctrines that already existed. The Corps battle system arose out of the Division system of de Broglie, and was formulated by Jean de Bourcet in his book Principes de la guerre des montagnes. It first came into use in the revolutionary wars as a means to organise the Levée en masse. Napoleon merely formalised its use when he became dictator.

L'Ordre Mixte was a compromise brought on by the shortage of experienced troops. A veteran battalion would advance in line, followed by two conscript battalions in column. This enabled the veterans to supply reasonable firepower, while the conscripts could maintain enough cohesion to be useful in the ensuing melee.

Soult was there, as Chief of Staff (replacing Berthier who had been assassinated by the Allies). He wasn't a very good Chief of Staff (failing to emulate Berthier's practice of sending multiple copies of important orders). Napoleon didn't trust Soult enough to leave him in Paris as Minister for War, so he appointed Davout in his place. Bear in mind that Soult had fought Wellington over an extended period and never beaten him.

Admittedly Murat would have been a better choice than Ney, but he was not without failings himself. Witness his conduct of the campaign in Italy that led to his defeat and execution.

Imagine Davout in place of Ney! But this was never going to happen because of Napoleon's jealousy of his best Marshal.

[Xelathur]

Lol lol LOL lol lol Lol loL lol lo l Lol Lool Lol lol lol.

You sure like to type lol, don't you.

Ontopic: His grace, ofcourse. No need to zerg here...

[Stildawn]

Wellington was on the verge of being beaten

How was Wellington ever on the verge of being beaten?

[RuleBritannia]

Waterloo, among other battles.

Napoleon's greatest strength was artillery and to an extent, cavalry. However, his weakenesses were ships and to an extent, infantry combat.

Wellington was more of a balanced general in my opinion, good in all fields of warfare.

[Slanted]

I would say neither of them were the greatest generals of their time. I would have to give it to Alexander Suvorov. He was a man ahead of his times in a tactics sense and throughout his entire history as a general never lost a battle (One of only four men). He rose from Private to Generalissimo of Russia in his career as a soldier. He always favored incredibly swift attacks and movements and always told his men and soldiers to seize the initiative and never hesitate.

[33orion77]

It was Gribeauval's artillery system. Napoleon's strengths were his charisma, his energy and decisiveness, and his strategic grasp. He assembled battle doctrines that already existed. The Corps battle system arose out of the Division system of de Broglie, and was formulated by Jean de Bourcet in his book Principes de la guerre des montagnes. It first came into use in the revolutionary wars as a means to organise the Levée en masse. Napoleon merely formalised its use when he became dictator.

L'Ordre Mixte was a compromise brought on by the shortage of experienced troops. A veteran battalion would advance in line, followed by two conscript battalions in column. This enabled the veterans to supply reasonable firepower, while the conscripts could maintain enough cohesion to be useful in the ensuing melee.

Soult was there, as Chief of Staff (replacing Berthier who had been assassinated by the Allies). He wasn't a very good Chief of Staff (failing to emulate Berthier's practice of sending multiple copies of important orders). Napoleon didn't trust Soult enough to leave him in Paris as Minister for War, so he appointed Davout in his place. Bear in mind that Soult had fought Wellington over an extended period and never beaten him.

Admittedly Murat would have been a better choice than Ney, but he was not without failings himself. Witness his conduct of the campaign in Italy that led to his defeat and execution.

Imagine Davout in place of Ney! But this was never going to happen because of Napoleon's jealousy of his best Marshal.

oups! you're right I have counfounded Soult and Davout, I meant Davout... This should make us remind ourself that a good general with a poor staff makes bad impresion

[Amaz]

I agree with Slanted actually...

[duke of york]

the battle of waterloo was the best example of everything going wrong for the french.
1# though wellington wasn't the best of all time he was natorious for using the landscape to his advantage. he arived first so he got to pick his possision to defend.
2# he posted his army on a hill overlooking a field the only thing was there had been alot of rain attacking french would have to dificultly muddle their way through the mud.napoleon saw this and waited several hours trying to let it dry up a bit.He was mistaken scientists say it would have taken more than 5 days to let it dry up all he did was give valuable time to the prussian reinforcements.
#3 a farm was the base of the fighting it was the key to the british right flank. wellington stationed his elitest men there to keep the french at bay.the french never succeeded in capturing it.
#4 partway through the battle nepoleon retired to the french camp for he was in poor health. he would never be there for the climax of the battle.
#5 the number 2 man for napoleon made a fatal error in the latter parts of the battle the forces still hadn't clashed except at the farm house and he got word "The british are fleeing". he pulled together a huge cavalery force and charged up hill. ontop the littered battlefield slowed the horses to a walk where they met finely made squares of infantry. a mere fraction got back alive it made the charge of the light brigade look like a small occurance
#6 the prussians arived french were assaulted from both sides confusion kicked in and many were killed.

as you see both shrewdness and mistakes lead to a french defeat.one thing is certian if you don't make mistakes and at some point your enemy makes them you are going to be victoriously. both were great but i like the duke wellington as number 8 on my list of best generals neapoleon 5.
#1 alexander the great
#2 julious cesar
#3 cyrus of persia
#4 gen. george s. patton
#5 napoleon
#6 gen. duglas mcarther
#7 gen. erwin romel
#8 duke of wellington
#9 hanibal
#10 sun tzu
but the best general of all time is.........................................................................................ME!!!

[Holman]

[pietjan]

NAPOLEON