3 Theologians talk about the Recession

**Da Skinna** · July 06, 2009, 05:53 PM

Naturally, you can only get something like this with as much depth to its substance from PBS. Thank you Bill Moyers.

So what do you think?

I thought that was the best definition of Original Sin I've heard. And how biblical and ancient laws of man's frailties continue to this day in its various forms. Greed and hubris especially.

**Ó Cathasaigh** · July 06, 2009, 09:35 PM

If I wasn't running on dialup, I'd surely give it a watch. I'll get back to this in...oh...1 month when I'm back on high speed goodness. Till then...bump.

**nopasties** · July 06, 2009, 10:06 PM

This is so biased, where is Dobson or Pat Robertson?????

They didn't even talk about gay people!!!

It was good to hear about social justice again

**basics** · July 07, 2009, 07:35 AM

" And there followed another angel, saying Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." Revelation 14 v 8.

Therein lies the problem of the world. Babylon is in type all the major centres of finance, the results of which drip down to the lowest of men. Humanity has become drunk and incapable in it's quest for riches even to it's lowest common denominator. The she mentioned is of course the whore of Babylon and from her time she has seduced all men to seek what not all can have. Nonetheless they try and try because she has made them drunk by her power.

This is something that Theology has no mastery of nor can it since it is already written. Impressive as it may sound Theology never made the Christian and never will. Oh from it's selfmade lofty towers it may express what men should do not knowing that it itself is also drunk with the wine of her fornication. By that I mean like the Pharisees of old they are white on the outside yet black as the ace of spades on the inside.

Theologians tell us many things but how many ever tell us that our major religions are as embroiled in the financial mess as are all else caught up in the mess. And why we are in the mess is because we have become drunk on the power of her wine of fornication. That is drunk by trying to mix religion with the world where in the eyes of God never the two can mix, not if it belongs to God.

The verse is of what is to come, yet already we see from our present predicament that although it is there for all to see, none are doing so. Why, because we believe the myth that makes us drunk in our quest for worldly riches? As long as the Whore has that power over us we cannot get off the ladder of worldly life because in our drunkenness we are insensitive to reality, something in which we are now caught up in, something called recession.

**Vladimir Lenin** · July 07, 2009, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by basics

" And there followed another angel, saying Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." Revelation 14 v 8.

Therein lies the problem of the world. Babylon is in type all the major centres of finance, the results of which drip down to the lowest of men. Humanity has become drunk and incapable in it's quest for riches even to it's lowest common denominator. The she mentioned is of course the whore of Babylon and from her time she has seduced all men to seek what not all can have. Nonetheless they try and try because she has made them drunk by her power.

This is something that Theology has no mastery of nor can it since it is already written. Impressive as it may sound Theology never made the Christian and never will. Oh from it's selfmade lofty towers it may express what men should do not knowing that it itself is also drunk with the wine of her fornication. By that I mean like the Pharisees of old they are white on the outside yet black as the ace of spades on the inside.

Theologians tell us many things but how many ever tell us that our major religions are as embroiled in the financial mess as are all else caught up in the mess. And why we are in the mess is because we have become drunk on the power of her wine of fornication. That is drunk by trying to mix religion with the world where in the eyes of God never the two can mix, not if it belongs to God.

The verse is of what is to come, yet already we see from our present predicament that although it is there for all to see, none are doing so. Why, because we believe the myth that makes us drunk in our quest for worldly riches? As long as the Whore has that power over us we cannot get off the ladder of worldly life because in our drunkenness we are insensitive to reality, something in which we are now caught up in, something called recession.

Could you turn the Apocrypha and End-Times filter on? I can't make sense of this at all.

**Ciabhán** · July 07, 2009, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by basics

" And there followed another angel, saying Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." Revelation 14 v 8.

Therein lies the problem of the world. Babylon is in type all the major centres of finance, the results of which drip down to the lowest of men. Humanity has become drunk and incapable in it's quest for riches even to it's lowest common denominator. The she mentioned is of course the whore of Babylon and from her time she has seduced all men to seek what not all can have. Nonetheless they try and try because she has made them drunk by her power.

This is something that Theology has no mastery of nor can it since it is already written. Impressive as it may sound Theology never made the Christian and never will. Oh from it's selfmade lofty towers it may express what men should do not knowing that it itself is also drunk with the wine of her fornication. By that I mean like the Pharisees of old they are white on the outside yet black as the ace of spades on the inside.

Theologians tell us many things but how many ever tell us that our major religions are as embroiled in the financial mess as are all else caught up in the mess. And why we are in the mess is because we have become drunk on the power of her wine of fornication. That is drunk by trying to mix religion with the world where in the eyes of God never the two can mix, not if it belongs to God.

The verse is of what is to come, yet already we see from our present predicament that although it is there for all to see, none are doing so. Why, because we believe the myth that makes us drunk in our quest for worldly riches? As long as the Whore has that power over us we cannot get off the ladder of worldly life because in our drunkenness we are insensitive to reality, something in which we are now caught up in, something called recession.

Really all men are affected by this Babylon? What about aboriginal peoples? Rainforest dwellers? Other tribal peoples that have no modern society? Next time try typing your answers in a less cryptic way and maybe you might manage to convert some of the heathen masses, since you try so bloody hard.

P.S. Could you point me in the direction of this 'wine of fornication' it sounds kinky and as you repeat that phrase enough times I must assume you have tried it and know where it is.

**basics** · July 08, 2009, 06:08 AM

" P.S. Could you point me in the direction of this 'wine of fornication' it sounds kinky and as you repeat that phrase enough times I must assume you have tried it and know where it is."

Ciabhan,

I have indeed experienced a little of the above in my time on the planet. I have indulged in the rush for glory both positionally and financially, mixing with greater than myself yet never quite attaining what my desire wanted. We all want it, whether a tribal person in the rainforests or at the opposite end of the spectrum the very rich who need to be more rich. It is the drive within us to be better and the higher one gets how that drive takes on more sinister aspects.

You have heard the expression, " would sell his granny for an extra buck if he could " and some people I know are not short in that aspect. We live in a must have society regardless of what that society is and it's all to do with money and power, not necessarily in that order. The more you have the more you want. That is the meaning of being drunk with the wine of her fornication. It can also be said that this carries forth into the breakup of so many marriages as it did mine.

The Whore mentioned is what these financial centres attain to, yet can be associated with that person who was called the Whore of Baylon, Semiramis. She was reputed to be so beautiful that sight of her drove men wild with desire and knowing this she used it to get what she wanted. They too attract men and women so intoxicated by desire for wealth that all else takes second place. To them it is natural, yet to others below them it is obsessional, them knowing the jealousy of those still struggling to attain to where they are.

Wine and fornication whilst type can also be literalised because what the man at the top has we want and if it is drink we will have it and if it is sex we will have it regardless of our responsibilities. Power brings these things easily to them at the top but us at the bottom why not have a little of what's going around. The power of sex has seen many exam results altered in the hallowed corridors of learning and government excels in using power to exceed even that.

Some of you might well retort that this is just life but it is not. It is what fallen man has now become. He is so drunk and incapable of seeing this. Life since the war has changed dramatically in that we are so sensitive to how we feel that we have long forgotten God, never mind the commandments that were so important to our upbringing. We cover all that with Human Rights and political correctness because inside these umbrellas we really don't give a damn.

**Ciabhán** · July 08, 2009, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by basics

" P.S. Could you point me in the direction of this 'wine of fornication' it sounds kinky and as you repeat that phrase enough times I must assume you have tried it and know where it is."

Ciabhan,

I have indeed experienced a little of the above in my time on the planet. I have indulged in the rush for glory both positionally and financially, mixing with greater than myself yet never quite attaining what my desire wanted. We all want it, whether a tribal person in the rainforests or at the opposite end of the spectrum the very rich who need to be more rich. It is the drive within us to be better and the higher one gets how that drive takes on more sinister aspects.

You have heard the expression, " would sell his granny for an extra buck if he could " and some people I know are not short in that aspect. We live in a must have society regardless of what that society is and it's all to do with money and power, not necessarily in that order. The more you have the more you want. That is the meaning of being drunk with the wine of her fornication. It can also be said that this carries forth into the breakup of so many marriages as it did mine.

The Whore mentioned is what these financial centres attain to, yet can be associated with that person who was called the Whore of Baylon, Semiramis. She was reputed to be so beautiful that sight of her drove men wild with desire and knowing this she used it to get what she wanted. They too attract men and women so intoxicated by desire for wealth that all else takes second place. To them it is natural, yet to others below them it is obsessional, them knowing the jealousy of those still struggling to attain to where they are.

Wine and fornication whilst type can also be literalised because what the man at the top has we want and if it is drink we will have it and if it is sex we will have it regardless of our responsibilities. Power brings these things easily to them at the top but us at the bottom why not have a little of what's going around. The power of sex has seen many exam results altered in the hallowed corridors of learning and government excels in using power to exceed even that.

Some of you might well retort that this is just life but it is not. It is what fallen man has now become. He is so drunk and incapable of seeing this. Life since the war has changed dramatically in that we are so sensitive to how we feel that we have long forgotten God, never mind the commandments that were so important to our upbringing. We cover all that with Human Rights and political correctness because inside these umbrellas we really don't give a damn.

Seriously basics, some painted, bone through the nose, banana leaf wearing tribesman is not at all affected by your definition of greed. 'Greed' is a biological neccessity that drives us and other animals to collect more(more food, better shelter, etc)in order to survive(modern society doesn't require us to try as hard to stay alive so that biological drive is handled differently by those of us in rich industrialised countries). Some aboriginal tribesman in some jungle somewhere is 'greedy' the same way a rabbit is......i.e. wants to have a nicer hut and more food to help him survive and propagate his genes. If your god didn't want animals to experience 'greed' in some way he wouldn't(obviously I am pretending he exists for the sake of the argument)have created them that way. You can skip the lesson in free-will, this is outside that boundary as 'greed' under the circumstances is nothing more than a biological drive to aid survival.

I have been drunk and incapable of seeing things before, more than once. I am however perfectly aware of the fact that human beings are just animals and quite fallable, therefore all that other bullocks is really just part of life. Fair or not, fitting your moral standard or not, it just happens. In this case it appears you are the one incapable of seeing things for what they are without adding some kind of apocryphal, mystic, end of times, fallen man, biblical, nonsense meaning to it all.

Oh and you can go ahead and compare your Semiramis with other sirens of ancient legend like the beautiful interpretation of Helen, or(for the biblical reference) Delilah, or any other of the 'beautiful but weak' temptress types of story. Most people realise that the stories are moral lessons along the lines of adult Aesop's Fables. We all know old men in caves write stories about the evils of temptation, especially the ones of the flesh of which they are no longer capable.

**basics** · July 09, 2009, 04:46 AM

" Oh and you can go ahead and compare your Semiramis with other sirens of ancient legend like the beautiful interpretation of Helen, or(for the biblical reference) Delilah, or any other of the 'beautiful but weak' temptress types of story. Most people realise that the stories are moral lessons along the lines of adult Aesop's Fables. We all know old men in caves write stories about the evils of temptation, especially the ones of the flesh of which they are no longer capable."

Ciabhan,

Oh, I think you will find that she was the first and that all others could well be rooted back to her, as Hyslop writes in his Two Babylons. Nonetheless, God had Moses write of her by command not for moral lessons although these can well be included, rather to show the power she wields in the name of her false god. That god being the serpent who rules the world and of whom you are under by influence. The drunkenness is of the mind, the heart, that defends itself from the Gospel of Jesus Christ but remember it is meant to cut to the quick, to offend. Your portion above tends towards you being offended.

**Da Skinna** · July 07, 2009, 11:38 AM

"drunk off the wrath of her fornication"... sounds hot.

But the overarching point I got was that human nature is biblical, ancient, and not very changing. It's how we view ourselves, understand our frailties, and then build our systems around that... human proofing our systems of government and economy.

**finsternis** · July 07, 2009, 12:16 PM

Well said. American Greed and American Pride (which is worse than greed) has put american in this problem.

Greed made the recession (but I don't think you could have actually stopped it. Rich people tend to be greedy, hence why they are rich, and they are the ones that control the economy). But Pride (and greed too) is stopping people from fixing it since they refuse to implement more socialist policies because "they are not American ideas". Ridiculous.

We do need to change our national ideas.

**Ó Cathasaigh** · July 07, 2009, 07:11 PM

You think people don't like Socialism because it's not an American Idea?

Sheesh. We're not "too proud for socialism" we just think it's a stupid idea.

**finsternis** · July 10, 2009, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by Ó Cathasaigh

You think people don't like Socialism because it's not an American Idea?

Sheesh. We're not "too proud for socialism" we just think it's a stupid idea.

I'm not saying that everyone thinks that, but must of the time I hear a republican bashing socialism is usually because they think that "America is a capitalist country". That shows that they have this idea that America is defined by capitalism, which is a ridiculous idea.