Healthcare, a Human Right?

**AqD** · July 04, 2009, 12:59 AM

From a post in Political Mudpit

Originally Posted by 2-D Ron

Healthcare, is a basic Human Right and nobody should be denied the right to live a long healthy life.

Why should healthcare be a basic human right at all? Doesn't it imply that other people must pay for your health? How can there be a human right that depends on the contributions from other people? (forced contribution is robbery isn't it?)

If one cannot live on his own, or cannot live well, he can choose not to live.

**Theseus1234** · July 04, 2009, 01:04 AM

I don't believe that it's a basic human right. It's nice, and it's a great perk from the government, but not a human right.

**Baron Thunder-ten-tronckh** · July 04, 2009, 02:45 AM

Is anything a human right? This is I guess where this -seemingly innocent - question can lead you.

I do however agree with forced contribution to healthcare. I believe that the healthcare matrices implented by several European countries is a good way to go. I do not think that the American (and in some regards Australian) system is that effective. Scream communism if you will; however, the fact still stands that it is effective. What is this attachment that Americans (and others) have to their money? What drives them to treasure their paper-green notes more than the results of the money? Is it security?

**Wolfgang von Zweibrücken** · July 21, 2009, 01:27 AM

Originally Posted by DogeCristoforo

Is anything a human right? This is I guess where this -seemingly innocent - question can lead you.

I do however agree with forced contribution to healthcare. I believe that the healthcare matrices implented by several European countries is a good way to go. I do not think that the American (and in some regards Australian) system is that effective. Scream communism if you will; however, the fact still stands that it is effective. What is this attachment that Americans (and others) have to their money? What drives them to treasure their paper-green notes more than the results of the money? Is it security?

I just saw, during the "Moment of Zen" at the end of "The Daily Show" a newsclip where a reporter was rolling about in a wheel chair and asking "Who is responsible for paying four times the cost of buying a wheel-chair to rent it? I'll give you a hint" and then he wheeled to the side and exposed Capital Hill behind him.

This is Socialized Medicine in a nutshell. The Airforce payed trillions to rent mid-air refueling plains, yearly, which would have cost far less if actually bought. In my own city, I noticed a strange phenomena - Every time I drove through the poor neighborhood, I would see large numbers of electric wheelchairs(scooters or hover-rounds, or whatever they are called), which the denizens of said neighborhood were using as cars, packing the front basket with groceries and children. I later saw a news story saying that the city government was paying for a $15,000 model of scooter, and was receiving a $1,500 model. "Why?" You ask? Because somebody had a friend at the electric wheel-chair company. And the kicker? The next day I see a legless homeless guy, and he doesn't have one of the new chairs.

This is what it's going to be with national healthcare. The hospitals, pharmaceutical and insurance companies already conspire to rip the public off, by suggesting and prescribing an unnecessary medication (Restless Leg Syndrome, anyone?), which the Pharma company flew the doctor to a golf-course to sing the praises of, because it over-charges the Insurance Companies for that medication, who in turn raise premiums to cover the cost of RLS-medication, passing the expense back to the RLS-sufferer from the beginning.

In order to rip off the government, they don't even need this kind of merry-go-round approach. They just have to buy off anyone who's district isn't tied to their company or the industry in general already.

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labours of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Thomas Jefferson

**roy34543** · July 04, 2009, 02:53 AM

Not even remotely a human right. Shouldnt a doctor have a right not to work for you , I mean they already have to in an emergency, and maybe emergency care shoudl be a human right if its possible to give it, But health care in general? absoloutly not. If you have a cold a doctor shouldnt be forced to waste their time, just wait until its gone or pay for a doctor. And at some point if you cant pay for healthcare then a doctor shouldnt have to treat you unless they want to.

**DAVIDE** · July 05, 2009, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by roy34543

Not even remotely a human right. Shouldnt a doctor have a right not to work for you , I mean they already have to in an emergency, and maybe emergency care shoudl be a human right if its possible to give it, But health care in general? absoloutly not. If you have a cold a doctor shouldnt be forced to waste their time, just wait until its gone or pay for a doctor. And at some point if you cant pay for healthcare then a doctor shouldnt have to treat you unless they want to.

Health Care is a right of everybody, indipendently if you are Bill Gates or the beggar in the 5th Avenue.

What are the consequences of an extreme capitalism?

- rich bored people owns 300 houses + 200.000 cars, spending 100.000 $ a day in

, while the majority of people hasnt a car or an house and they do not have the money for feeding themselves daily, or they lost their job the day before
- rich bored people has a car accident, they are accepted in the best hospital in circulation + best treatments, while 8.000.000 and more people, has a pay who doesnt permit them to have a minumum insurance. And if a poor persona has a minimum insurance, what's gonna happening? doctor will heal you badly and quickly, because u are not economically worthy to deserve the best treatments!

and if i remember well, all the american citizens payes the tribute/taxes to the US government..

The funny part of this story, for US gov considers all the citizens as "equals", JUST when those people has to pay taxes to gov. And how US gov thanks citizens for payin taxes? letting die poors in the streets or classifying own citizens as:

- Rich/above 200.000 dollars per year = extremely worthy
- Rich/above 100.000 dollars per year = worthy
- Beggars/less than 50.000 dollars per year = not worthy

The biggest democracy in the world is even the farest one by the "democracy concept" (libertè, egalite, fraternitè)

**Mithradates** · July 04, 2009, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by aqd

From a post in Political Mudpit

Why should healthcare be a basic human right at all? Doesn't it imply that other people must pay for your health? How can there be a human right that depends on the contributions from other people? (forced contribution is robbery isn't it?)

If one cannot live on his own, or cannot live well, he can choose not to live.

Forced contribution isnt always robbery, thats the way how our civilization works.

People cant live on their own so all human rights depend on the contributions from other people, for example you (and everyone else) pay taxes to your state to maintain an army/police which will secure your (and everyone else's) right to live free.

btw I always tought healthcare is a human right by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 25

Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

**Vladimir Lenin** · July 04, 2009, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by Mithradates

Forced contribution isnt always robbery

No, it's pretty much always robbery. I don't remember a situation where a guy put a gun to another man's head and asked for money, and have it not be reported as robbery.

**♔Jean-Luc Picard♔** · July 04, 2009, 09:51 AM

Not in reality. They try to make it as if it is a right, but it is just a really nice perk.

**Mithradates** · July 05, 2009, 05:28 AM

Not always.

For example taxes are not voluntary, they are forced contributions (you MUST pay them)

**MasterOfNone** · July 05, 2009, 08:38 AM

A right is something you possess or can do without having to ask any higher authority than yourself. Breathing, for example, is a right. When rights bump up against other people's rights then they do not cease to exist, you merely have to restrict where you exercise them. I do not want someone coming to my house and breathing all over my newly-cleaned windows

Alas, the term has been applied to what are actually privileges (and not rights) in our day which has led to a lot of confusion. A privilege is something you may possess or do when you have permission.

Of course, when one passes laws making privileges something that must be given to others then one violates the rights of the giver - thus standing the whole purpose of government (to protect rights) on its head.

Another way, to turn to healthcare specifically, to look at it is to reference the old maxim that "the just powers of government are derived from the governed". What this means is that governments can only justly exercise powers that have

1. Derived from the individual AND
2. have been delegated to it.

So, do I have a right to force a doctor to attend to my medical needs - or to force someone to give up their money to pay for that doctor's service? I believe the answer is no. So, based on this, I cannot justly ask Government to do it on my behalf.

There's a great little article here I'd suggest:
http://www.bdt.com/pages/Peikoff.html

**Desperado †** · July 05, 2009, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by aqd

(forced contribution is robbery isn't it?)

Call it robbery if you want, it's legitimate so long as you're within a fair democracy.

**Phier** · July 05, 2009, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by Desperado †

Call it robbery if you want, it's legitimate so long as you're within a fair democracy.

Robbery is legitimate if you are the guy with the gun.

If 51% of the people want the other 49% to be slaves is legitimate as a democracy.

It doesn't make it right though.

**Каие** · July 05, 2009, 09:35 AM

Access to healthcare is a right. Everything else is debatable.

**DAVIDE** · July 05, 2009, 09:57 AM

Only in America, health care's a business. 8 millions people dies in the streets, because they cannot have a minimun insurance. MDs which owns 30 mansions around the world and gains 90.000 dollars per day! outrageous

**Phier** · July 05, 2009, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by davide.cool

Only in America, health care's a business. 8 millions people dies in the streets, because they cannot have a minimun insurance. MDs which owns 30 mansions around the world and gains 90.000 dollars per day! outrageous

**LegionnaireX** · July 26, 2009, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by davide.cool

Only in America, health care's a business. 8 millions people dies in the streets, because they cannot have a minimun insurance. MDs which owns 30 mansions around the world and gains 90.000 dollars per day! outrageous

Whose Kool Aid have you been drinking because that it total

. Unless they are independently wealthy, there are no physicians which make that kind of money or own 30 mansions, don't be ridiculous.

Doctors deserve their high salaries. They are the highest trained professionals in the world who work long hours under a lot of stress.

**roy34543** · July 05, 2009, 10:33 AM

Health Care is a right of everybody, indipendently if you are Bill Gates or the beggar in the 5th Avenue.

What are the consequences of an extreme capitalism?

- rich bored people owns 300 houses + 200.000 cars, while the majority of people hasnt a car or an house and they do not have the money for feed themselves everyday
- rich bored people has a car accident, go to the best hospital in circulation + best treatments, while 8.000.000 and more people, has a pay who doesnt permit them to have a minumum insurance. And if a poor persona has a minimum insurance, what's gonna happening? doctor will heal you badly and quickly, because u are not economically worthy to deserve the best treatment!

and if i remember well, all the american citizens payes the tribute/taxes to the US government..

The funny part of this story, for US gov considers all the citizens as "equals", JUST when those people has to pay taxes to gov. And how US gov thanks citizens for payin taxes? letting die poors in the streets or classifying own citizens as:

- Rich = worthy
- Beggars = not worthy

The biggest democracy in the world is even the farest one by the "democracy concept"

Its not pretty , but if a mean beggar gets everything and absoloutly anything he wants for free, he has no incentive to ever work.

**MasterOfNone** · July 05, 2009, 10:40 AM

A philosophy based on robbery can never truly protect life or liberty. Why? Because life, liberty and property are the three major divisions of that same one right that all possess: ownership of what we are, of what we have done and of what we will do...

**Denny Crane!** · July 05, 2009, 10:37 AM

What is the difference between having to provide for someone in my country and someone in France or Africa? There isn't one except the false concept of nationhood. Then you are left with believing it is a right but no way to provide it. You can't externalise rights like that, rights are not something that can be provided off the back off extortion legitimate or not.