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    Default Myths of the Renaissance

    I've read a thought provoking and witty essay by Australian structuralist philosopher James Franklin. The crux of the issue is the Renaissance, and how much later sensibilities have made these ages into myth; this is naturally part of the whole scholarship that has been produced to debunk Medieval myths, some of which quoted on related pages are "The Myth of the Droit de Cussage", by Alain Boureau (shattering apart the old Braveheart riddle about "Primae Nocte") and the "Secrets of Women: Gender, Generation, and the Origins of Human Dissection", which tears apart the also old belief that human dissection was forbidden in the Middle Ages, both of which I plan to own in the future.

    Anyway, back at the Renaissance theme, this essay attacks the old, and nowadays only found among dry resumés and schoolbooks, notion that the Renaissance was somehow an age that ushered Europe "away" from the Dark Ages and into an age of prosperity, bliss and intellectual wisdom. There is nothing new, indeed, in this, and so far most respectable historiography of the present avoids painting much of a terrible and caricature-esque view of the Middle Ages, even if it does not set to actively combat the popular wisdom and the tired old notions still widely in vogue in popular mentality and schoolbooks.

    What it does is to go further on the issue of the "Renaissance" fable, and attacks its intellectual creativity altogether vis-à-vis the preceding period, making elucidations on the previous literary and scientific achievements of Medieval scholarship in the meantime. The attacks are particularly devastating: the "Renaissance" as set early on is defined merely as a sycophantic attitude towards earlier Roman authors. In the last paragraphs, the author goes so far as to attack Petrarch, the man-myth considered as the forebear of the "re-birth" of Classical art and the term "Dark Ages" (whereas "Middle" Ages is derived from XVII century academia; more on this below).

    I would like to know from our expert Medievalists and historians (Side glances to Siggy aside ), how much merit has this thesis. It is quite obvious that much of the old, Gibbon, schoolbook like definition of periods of "darkness" and "light" is posh, but Franklin takes a rather radical stance on knowledge of the XV century. Yes, it is indeed true that Petrarch and the subsequent merely imported a Medieval theological view of history into their Classicist framework - the "Age of the Father, Age of the Son and the Age of the Holy Ghost" into "Ancient-Medieval-Modern" respectively, but is the statement that the XV century intellectual life is rather devoid of originality and value compared to the preceding, and later centuries, completely true?

    Some excerpts for you interested:

    The literary end of intellectual life did not fare much better than science, except that the slump was not quite so long. Rather than protest, as is usual, about the difficulty of confining historical movements within definite dates, I am happy to name the fifteenth century as coinciding quite accurately with the decline of literature. Chaucer died in 1400; the next writers that anyone still reads are Erasmus, More, Rabelais and Machiavelli, just after 1500. Hard information on what is widely read is admittedly not easy to come by, but here is some evidence: of the 282 volumes currently available in the Penguin Classics series, twelve and most of two others are from the fourteenth century; they include works of Dante, Chaucer and Boccaccio. By contrast only two are from the fifteenth century. One is Thomas a Kempis' Imitation of Christ, a work of genuine piety, but with an attitude to intellectual matters typified by its remark that "I would rather feel compunction than be able to define it". The other is Thomas Malory's Morte d'Arthur, a not especially good example of a genre perfected hundreds of years earlier. A preoccupation with the past, in lieu of any developments in the present, was pervasive in the writings of the century, from the repetitive Arthurian and Trojan legends of England and France to the Italian humanists' obsessive commentaries on Latin rhetoric and poetical theory. The vanishing of past glories is almost the sole theme of Villon, the only French writer of the century who has any modern audience.

    Literature in English suffered, if anything, an even worse eclipse than continental literatures. From the fourteenth century, Chaucer's Canterbury Tales and other poems, Langland's Piers Plowman and the Gawain poems are still read, and not just by professional language students. But, except for Malory and a few lyric poets anthologised for completeness, it is hard to think of any writer in English between Chaucer and Spenser who is now read even by the most enthusiastic students. The gap is almost two hundred years.
    A particular case of the way that the skill of the Renaissance in art has served to cover up its utter incompetence at anything else is evident in the admiration of many for Leonardo da Vinci. Admirers of the Renaissance have acclaimed him as a type of the Renaissance man; its detractors can, I think, do the same. Like the Renaissance itself, Leonardo was supposed to be good at everything. But on examination, it turns out he had nothing of importance to say on most subjects. Some histories of Italian literature do not mention Leonardo at all; those which do mostly approve his description of himself as a "man without letters" (he could not write in Latin at all), and advise us to look elsewhere for his achievements. Doing so, we find that a standard history of mathematics says "[his] published jottings on mathematics are trivial, even puerile, and show no mathematical talent whatever." Though he had some skill as a military engineer, he does not seem to have made any definite contributions to science or technology. Dreams about helicopters do not constitute great science. But he was a great painter.
    And his diatribe on Petrarch:

    Finally, if the Renaissance was not an age of intellectual brilliance, who put about the myth that it was, and to what end?

    There is one man deserving most of the blame - Petrarch. Though in fact he lived at the time of the Black Death, a century before the Renaissance is usually thought to have begun, he first made most of the claims advanced by later advocates of the Renaissance. He hunted for manuscripts, and claimed to have rediscovered various ancient authors. He imitated Cicero, meaning his style rather than his content. He criticised the university scholars of his day for irrelevant dialectical subtleties and hair-splitting logic, though there is no evidence that he ever tried to understand what they were saying. He is said to have left Venice because some young university philosophers said he was "a good man, but illiterate." In view of his own dictum that "it is better to will the good than to know the truth", they were surely at least half right. Even on his chosen ground, lyric love poetry, it is possible to feel in his work a certain obviousness and lack of sensibility compared with, say, Guido Cavalcanti's Donna mi Prega of fifty years earlier. After writing several hundred sonnets cataloguing Laura's numerous charms and virtues and his own living deaths and delicious pains, he noted the news of her death in his copy of Virgil, in order that he might be constantly reminded of the decay of all earthly goals. He pulled off the century's most amazing propaganda stunt by having himself crowned as poet on the Capitoline Hill, reviving a supposed classical tradition. This was to celebrate, he said, the rebirth of poetry after a thousand years. Even if the troubadour lyrics, the Eddas and the Roman de la Rose had never been written, the idea of someone announcing the rebirth of poetry thirty years after Dante's death is just a disgrace.
    Last edited by Marie Louise von Preussen; July 03, 2009 at 05:08 PM.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

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    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Myths of the Renaissance

    You forgot to add:

    Now if there was a Dark Age, it might be argued, with some show of reason, that there must have been a renaissance to end it.
    This is perfectly correct. There was one, and it happened in the twelfth century.

    This fact has, it is true, not entirely escaped the notice of historians, and it has become common to speak of "the twelfth-century renaissance" and also of a "Carolingian renaissance" in the ninth century. But, as the qualifiers in the names suggest, these are thought of as pale forerunners of the Renaissance - good efforts for their time, perhaps, but hardly to be compared with the real thing. But the Carolingian renaissance did not amount to much, and the capital-R Renaissance was, as we have seen, more like two steps back than one step forward.

    The twelfth century, though, had a real, true, and unqualified renaissance
    which tears apart the also old belief that human dissection was forbidden in the Middle Ages,
    Its well know that during the medieval period there was increased attention paid to anatomy, and there was a revival of dissecting human cadavers in the 14th century.Although the desire for greater knowledge of anatomy was responsible for the revival of human dissection, , rather different forces led to social sanction - since the earliest dissections in middle age appear to have an - entirely- medical legal purpose. (eg: determining the cause of death in suspicious cases/ or attempting to learn about the nature of diseases from the pathological findings)
    The best of medieval dissectors was Mondino Luzzi ("Anathomia",1316, an instruction book on dissecting thecniques, it went through 40 editions, and remained the standard text until the time of Vesalius)
    Last edited by Ludicus; July 03, 2009 at 07:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Myths of the Renaissance

    Louis XIV lit the fire at a cat-burning in Paris.

    I don't think the torture of animals is funny, not even a little.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Myths of the Renaissance

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    Louis XIV lit the fire at a cat-burning in Paris.

    I don't think the torture of animals is funny, not even a little.
    Early Modern Contemporaries would disagree. Anyone up for some fox-tossing?
    Patronised by Voltaire le Philosophe

    Therefore One hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the most skillful. Seizing the enemy without fighting is the most skillful. War is of vital importance to the state and should not be engaged carelessly... - Sun Tzu

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    Default Re: Myths of the Renaissance

    I don't like the division Middle Ages - Renaissance at all. In all periods there exists the same, with the popular oppinions taking one side or another. There was a temporary inclination to ancient literature and that's all. Mass trans, if it was en masse at that time at all. Today for sure some people are in trans of the perfection of the present civilisation, while the more observant will see it as a masquerade. One will do better to avoid official and popular qualifications and to study things for himself.

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    Default Re: Myths of the Renaissance

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis XI View Post
    this essay attacks the old, and nowadays only found among dry resumés and schoolbooks, notion that the Renaissance was somehow an age that ushered Europe "away" from the Dark Ages and into an age of prosperity, bliss and intellectual wisdom.
    Complete rubbish. Do you even know anything specifically on the scholarship on the Renaissance? There are tons of highly respected historians who write large volumes on the Renaissance understanding it precisely in that way, and describing it as a watershed in European history.

    Richard Mackenney, a scholar specifically on the Renaissance, wrote multiple books (such as this one) using that term precisely in that meaning. John Hale, another esteemed scholar on the Renaissance has written a monumental Civilization of Europe in the Renaissance (1995), where he describes how drastically and completely Europe has changed from the year 1500 onwards, compared to the time that came before. The term Europe was first coined at that time, for instance, whereas the Medievals had never known it, and many other examples.

    I've read a thought provoking and witty essay by Australian structuralist philosopher James Franklin
    Yeah, and how does that make him a historian? I go to Amazon and I find no books on history written on him. I go to journal catalogues and find no substantial articles on history written by him. He's a nobody as far as historical opinion is concerned. That you choose to single him out, to quote him, illustrates your own issues rather than some sort of problems with the terms of the Renaissance and the Middle Ages.
    Last edited by SigniferOne; July 04, 2009 at 11:54 AM.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
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    Default Re: Myths of the Renaissance

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    Complete rubbish. Do you even know anything specifically on the scholarship on the Renaissance? There are tons of highly respected historians who write large volumes on the Renaissance understanding it precisely in that way, and describing it as a watershed in European history.

    Richard Mackenney, a scholar specifically on the Renaissance, wrote multiple books (such as this one) using that term precisely in that meaning. John Hale, another esteemed scholar on the Renaissance has written a monumental Civilization of Europe in the Renaissance (1995), where he describes how drastically and completely Europe has changed from the year 1500 onwards, compared to the time that came before. The term Europe was first coined at that time, for instance, whereas the Medievals had never known it, and many other examples.


    Yeah, and how does that make him a historian? I go to Amazon and I find no books on history written on him. I go to journal catalogues and find no substantial articles on history written by him. He's a nobody as far as historical opinion is concerned. That you choose to single him out, to quote him, illustrates your own issues rather than some sort of problems with the terms of the Renaissance and the Middle Ages.
    To have "written multiple books" is nothing, the value of the oppinion related to the truth counts. And in the last passage again "yeah but there aren't many things from him". What the f for an approach is that ?! Are only those who produce much allowed to be listened to or something ?!
    Last edited by Dracula; July 04, 2009 at 12:20 PM.

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    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Myths of the Renaissance

    Louis XI
    but is the statement that the XV century intellectual life is rather devoid of originality...compared to the preceding, and later centuries, completely true?

    Burckhardt,19th century most influential historian of Renaissance, states:

    The rapid progress after the year 1400 paralyzed native impulses. Henceforth, men looked only to antiquity for the solution of the problem, and consequently allowed literature to sink into mere quotation

    “The Civilization of the Renaissance in Italy”, Chapter 3, Humanists

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    Default Re: Myths of the Renaissance

    Indeed Ludicus, it wasn't merely literate quotation. The whole sphere of art basically became a mindless imitation of the Classical, most famously being the use of sculpture.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

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    Default Re: Myths of the Renaissance

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis XI View Post
    Indeed Ludicus, it wasn't merely literate quotation. The whole sphere of art basically became a mindless imitation of the Classical, most famously being the use of sculpture.
    Again, are you qualified to make this statement? No. If you knew anything about the history of art, you'd know that the Renaissance art was incredibly creative during the 15th century, a watershed, that was unparalleled in the previous 1000 years. Donatello casted the first bronze statue since the fall of Rome. And he had to rediscover the formula and the method, for it was lost during the Middle Ages. Massaccio rediscovered the art of painting and perspective that was lost during the Middle Ages, including things like the vanishing point, objective size in space, and proportions--all lost. Brunneleschi constructed the first free-standing dome in 1000 years, because the secret was lost again. Anyone with a kindergarten level knowledge of the Renaissance would know these things, and the watershed nature of the Renaissance is taught in every 101-level class. I recommend it.
    Last edited by SigniferOne; July 06, 2009 at 12:20 PM.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

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    Default Re: Myths of the Renaissance

    Alas. The Renaissance reinterpreted antiquity, and originality is an over-valued trait.

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    Default Re: Myths of the Renaissance

    It would be impossible to take a single Renaissance building, or statue, or any artistic work, and say that it is literally a copy of something antique. That sort of direct copying is only possible to find in the Neo-Classical movement of the late 18th century, where creativity indeed did disappear into a frozen stream. Renaissance art was full of life, vibrant and creative. Not to mention that it rediscovered all of the arts that were lost and forgotten in the Middle Ages, who not only didn't want to e.g. cast bronze statues of Man, but no longer even knew how. Likewise they no longer knew how to construct free-standing vaults or free-standing domes in architecture.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

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    Default Re: Myths of the Renaissance

    Renaissance domes were far superior to Roman or Byzanthine ones.

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    Default Re: Myths of the Renaissance

    I agree that they were great, but my point isn't to compare the two, only to put some light on LouisXI's well-informed and educated comments.

    "the old notion that the Renaissance was somehow an age that ushered Europe 'away' from the Dark Ages"

    "is the statement that the XV century intellectual life is rather devoid of originality...compared to the preceding, and later centuries, completely true?"

    "Indeed..., the whole sphere of art basically became a mindless imitation of the Classical"


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Myths of the Renaissance

    The technology improvement is a sign of the reinterpretation I was mentioning, as opposed to mere reproduction, and thus to be intended as an addition and not an adversative consideration.

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    Default Re: Myths of the Renaissance

    Siggy, did you know that "Bronze Statues" were pretty much made everywhere there was any interest for them? Here is a little statue, dated c. 1240, which shatters your own little mythology to pieces:



    Or the Statues in Gothic Cathedrals, or pretty much every Medieval or Byzantine statue is an artistic achievement.

    Again, Siggy, am I to really fall for your notion that men were ignorant and stupid for a thousand years, and then like magic started to grasp things right?
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

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    Default Re: Myths of the Renaissance

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis XI View Post
    Siggy, did you know that "Bronze Statues" were pretty much made everywhere there was any interest for them? Here is a little statue, dated c. 1240, which shatters your own little mythology to pieces:


    http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._the_Great.jpg
    "Magdeburger Reiter: a tinted sandstone equestrian monument..."

    Last edited by SigniferOne; July 06, 2009 at 03:01 PM.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

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    Default Re: Myths of the Renaissance

    "Magdeburger Reiter: a tinted sandstone equestrian monument..."
    Exactly, a statue. I did not state the Magdeburg Rider was made of "bronze", though I am sure that there were Byzantine statues made of it - What does it matter, anyway ?





    A very delightful statuary, if you ask me. Unless you're a Classicist, in that case Gothic = Bad.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

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    Default Re: Myths of the Renaissance

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis XI View Post
    Siggy, did you know that "Bronze Statues" were pretty much made everywhere there was any interest for them?

    [...]am I to really fall for your notion that men were ignorant and stupid for a thousand years, and then like magic started to grasp things right?

    Again, your futile protesting was to suggest that the art of bronze figure casting was not lost in the Middle Ages. And the only example you gave was a bronze-looking statue of Otto, which turned out to be a tinted statue of sandstone.

    So unless you provide some further evidence for me, I will continue stating, in accordance with every single art history book out there, that bronze statue casting was lost and forgotten in the Middle Ages, and Donatello's legendary fame is that he was the one who rediscovered it. And since Donatello lived in the 15th century, since perspective was rediscovered in the 15th century and people learned how to build free-standing domes in the 15th century, your extremely educated evaluation of that century's artistic creativity falls flat.
    Last edited by SigniferOne; July 06, 2009 at 03:07 PM.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

  20. #20

    Default Re: Myths of the Renaissance

    Again, your futile protesting was to suggest that the art of bronze figure casting was not lost in the Middle Ages. And the only example you gave was a bronze-looking statue of Otto, which turned out to be a tinted statue of sandstone.
    First, I was indeed fully aware that Gothic statues were not made of "Bronze", and did not state that Otto's Magdeburg Rider was made of one.

    As for "Bronze" Statues properly, they were present in Byzantium and Northern Italy since the Fourth Crusade. Not conclusive evidence for anything, since anyone who felt the need to cast bronze statues of the time could have studied the extent examples. That they did not, indicates a lack of artistic feeling for it, just as your little Romans had little artistic feeling for the Arabesque.

    And should I add? The use of Bronze, though it has certain values to the Statue at all, makes ultimately little difference depending on taste and fashion. The most prolific outcome of Roman statuary was made of marble & other materials, not of Bronze.

    Point is, there is nothing intrinsically more "advanced" in it, and that the legitimate products of the Gothic which I've shown you manage to express the same depth and beauty without resorting to Classicist convention.

    I mean, I'm sure that Classicist convention is also the same thing that makes Macbeth abominable to you, right? Because your tastes are narrow, that is.

    people learned how to build free-standing domes in the 15th century
    I'm pretty sure we have had this discussion before, and it was comprehensively shown to you that:

    I. Renaissance Architecture made use of flying buttresses just as the Gothic.
    II. That Gothic edifices could be free standing.

    Anyway, since I'm not as well versed in architecture as the people who debunked you repeatedly, I'll pass the merit for them, if there is indeed any merit in banging heads against a wall at all. Meanwhile, keep following your little religion.
    your extremely educated evaluation of that century's artistic creativity falls flat.
    My only "evaluation" was that the imitation of the Classical reached larger heights, even if it was by many aspects "imperfect" and not completely loyal at all. Artistic independence had been achieved with the Gothic, and unfortunately, it was set back by the Renaissance, which was more of negation than a creation.

    All the rest, is the author's opinion, which I asked to discuss merely.
    since perspective was rediscovered in the 15th century
    "Perspective" did not need to be rediscovered - it existed in Late Roman and Byzantine art already. Again, Classicist mythology.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

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