Unit rosters

[Morty]

I love DLV. I've been playing it since like 3.0 or something with lots of breaks in between version releases. I've also played SS and The Long Road.

That being said I've noticed many interesting roster choices that I believe could use some reworking. I have never moded and I'm slightly computer illiterate but would be willing to learn. I am not referring to their graphics but their position in the tech tree.

The Teutonic Order Barracks units:

Tier 1) Peasants

Tier 2) Seargent Spearmen

Tier 3) Teutonic Foot Knights
Mailed Foot Knights

Tier 4) **none**

Tier 5) Dismounted Halbbruder
Noble Pikemen
Imperial Foot Knights
Order Spearmen
Dismounted Ritterbruder

Stable Units currently:

Tier 1) Mounted Seargents

Tier 2) Mailed Knights

Tier 3) Teutonic Knights
General's Bodyguard

Tier 4) Halbbruder
Imperial Knights

Tier 5) Ritterbruder

Everything up to Tier 3 makes sense, however I for one would never make Halbbruder when I can make Teutonic Knights 1 tier earlier or Imperial Knights. The only reason I think I'd ever make a "few" Halbbruder would be that my imperial knights recruitment pool and Teutonic Knights pool are depleted. Stat wise Halbbruder are a variation of mailed knights.

Mailed Knights: 10 attk. 11 charge 30 defense
Halbbruder: 10 attk. 13 charge 28 defense

Further, the Halbbruder do not get a stamina bonus like mailed knights do. This makes them a situational unit in my opinion. Better at charges, but they don't last as long in fights due to less defense and no stamina bonus. I would propose making Halbbruder a Tier 2 recruit. This would also have the effect of making Dismounted Halbbruder available at Tier 3.

In summation:

Tier 1) Peasants Mounted Seargents

Tier 2) Seargent Spearmen Mailed knights, Halbbruder

Tier 3) Mailed Foot Knights Teutonic Knights
Dismounted Halbbruder General's Bodyguard
Teutonic Foot Knights

Tier 4) **none** Imperial Knights

Tier 5) Imperial Foot Knights Ritterbruder
Noble Pikemen
Dismounted Riterbruder
Order Spearmen

I can see by most rosters the equation is: the mounted version first, then the dismounted 1 tier later. However what that does mid game and later is allow laughable units to start appearing on the field much later than needed, i.e. dismounted halbbruder as a tier 5 when I can also recruit those other awesome units. This is not always the case, as in the case of where the Teutonic Knights and Foot Knights are located as stands now, both are Tier 3. If one followed that equation strictly then Teutonic Foot Knights should be a Tier 4 not 3.

Frankly I believe that equation up to tier 2 this works out. Later in the game though you end up with a roster like TO's. Lots of units available late game and then only from Citadels but pretty thin until then.

I've noticed these types of arrangements in other faction rosters but you get the jist (the Moors come to mind). Anyways what do you think overall?

Morty

[Kjertesvein]

So your going to make a mini mod out of this?

[Morty]

Well I don't know that it would be a mini mod. All I'm trying to do is illustrate that there is some room for improvement on the unit rosters. Take Andalusian Infantry vs. Lamtuna Spearmen of the Moors faction.

Andalusian Infantry: 11 attk. 3 charge 38 defense Tier 3

Lamtuna Spearmen: 11 attk. 4 charge 29 defense Tier 4

Their special abilities are identical.

Or take the example of Berber Spearmen vs. Nubian Spearmen also of the Moors faction.

Berber Spearmen: 9 attk. 3 charge 27 defense Tier 2

Nubian Spearmen: 9 attk. 2 charge 27 defense Tier 3

Their stats are nearly identical but there are two differences in abilities. Berber spearmen also get good stamina and bonus fighting in deserts. The Nubians do not.

In the first case it would be logical to make Andalusian Infantry tier 4 and move up Lamtuna Spearmen and Arab Infantry to tier 3. As for the 2nd. case I'd switch their positions. This to me is a logical progression. Crappiest -> Less Crappy -> Mediocre -> Good -> Best.

I am not suggesting adjusting stats/abilities. I just think that there are several factions that could use some tweaking as pertains to their unit tech tree.

Morty

[Kjertesvein]

okey, but just check that (example: )Lamatuna-/Andalusian Infantry, is set up historicaly correct.

I think this is easy to do, have you asked taiji or in the script forum for help?


Edit:

If I remember correctly, these arethe files you need to change:
EDU
EDB
Unit & Unit_info
Battle_models.modeldb

[Taiji]

I agree with Morty 100%. It would be great if someone wants to fix this problem. (it's just cut and paste in EDB, quite simple stuff )

[Morty]

Frankly some units are just window dressing if their stats are not an upgrade to units you can already recruit. In my above example I for one, would never make Nubian spearmen or Lamtuna spearmen and you could also throw in Arab Infantry to that, when I already have better (Berber then Andalusian Infantry).

The changes I'm suggesting would enhance game balance and force players to upgrade their standing armies as new & better units become available.

Tier 1) Peasants (crappiest)

Tier 2) Muslim Swordsmen, Nubian Spearmen (less crappy)

Tier 3) Berber Spearmen, Lamtuna Spearmen (medicore)

Tier 4) Arab Infanry, Christian Guard (good)

Tier 5) Andalusian Infantry (best)

This is how a Moor Faction barracks roster would look. You will notice I moved up the Christian Guard. This is consistent with other factions getting upgraded swordsmen at Tier 4 and some even earlier. Moving the Christian Guard up to Tier 4 would also allow the Moors to really crank them out since they would be recruitable from fortresses and not just citadels any longer. One could argue that this is unbalancing, but taken along with moving Andalusian Infantry to Tier 5 this balances out in my opinion. More input needed on that decision.

But Morty, Andalusian Infantry were the bulk of many campaigns! This is accurate as pertains to their ethnicity. However if you extrapolate this logic, why would the "good/best" units appear hundreds of years (turns) later in the game when clearly there were good/best units throughout the ages of war. Clearly this is a game balance mechanic. Otherwise all factions would have access to the best units turn 1.

Historically the Christian Guard are credited with first appearing during the reign of Al-Hakim I 796-822. They were "...Mamluks called Al-Khur (the mutes) owing to their all being christian or foreigners."(1) They numbered 2,000 infantry and 3,000 cavalry. They existed hundreds of years before the time of the first crusades and were the core for many Al-Andalus campaigns.(2)

Note many of the units (spearmen specifically) are named for their ethnicity.(2) Most armies had mixes of them all.

Nubian spearmen = Black slavs and mercenaries.
Berber spearmen = North africans west of the nile.
Lamtuna = Subtribe of Berbers, descendents of the founders of Marrakech.
Arab Infantry = Arab immigrants to Al-Andalus.
Andalusian Infantry = Muslims born in Al-Andalus of various races.

(1)The Legacy of Muslim Spain http://books.google.com.mx/books?id=...esult&resnum=3

(2) Military Organisation in the Reconquista http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/iberia...htm#al-andalus

All of these peoples existed and participated in battles hundreds of years before 1080 and I would argue that their arrival in game has little to do with history and more to do with game mechanics, playability and flavor.

Crappiest -> Less Crappy -> Medicore -> Good -> Best This is all I'm suggesting. Wouldn't it be nice to see and use all the units during a full campaign?

Morty

[Morty]

Blackleaf-Willie & Taiji are on board yes?

Does anyone else have an opinion on the need for something like this to be done?

Morty

[Grimblade]

I agree with Morty 100%. It would be great if someone wants to fix this problem. (it's just cut and paste in EDB, quite simple stuff )

Who should we bother .. eh I mean ask politely for permission to MOD EDB and EDU and things like changes export_descr_ancillaries.txt for crown system or even some really ambitious stuff like changing SPF calculation rates in descr_settlement_mechanics.xml to avoid what seems like CLONE settlements to me. What I mean is settlements that have same BASE farming level. Also I hate that <pip_max value="3"/> for SPF rates seems to be locked at 3, and to me it seems to ruin Civilization building feel of DLV that I like and also RPG aspect for your high chivalry Governors. Also it would mean changing <population_levels> to something like
<population_levels>
<!-- city -->
<level name="village" base="500" upgrade="1250" min="500" max="1500"/>
<level name="town" base="500" upgrade="5000" min="500" max="8000"/>
<level name="large_town" base="5000" upgrade="12500" min="500" max="15000"/>
<level name="city" base="12500" upgrade="25000" min="500" max="35000"/>
<level name="large_city" base="25000" upgrade="42000" min="500" max="75000"/>
<level name="huge_city" base="42000" min="500" max="500000"/>
<!-- castle -->
<level name="moot_and_bailey" base="500" upgrade="1000" min="500" max="3000"/>
<level name="wooden_castle" base="1000" upgrade="2750" min="500" max="8000"/>
<level name="castle" base="2750" upgrade="10500" min="500" max="25000"/>
<level name="fortress" base="10500" upgrade="21000" min="500" max="50000"/>
<level name="citadel" base="21000" upgrade="42000" min="500" max="100000"/>
</population_levels>

</root>

I know that this is probably something that should be done only with extreme care since income levels seem to be really balanced in the beginning but too high later (though that is because of too high <factor name="SIF_TAXES">
<pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
<castle_modifier value="0.2"/>
<city_modifier value="1.0"/>
</factor>
that can be stacked infinitely . (BUT it works really well until late game and only becomes a problem when too much faction_capability trade_base_income_bonus bonus are stacked on top of each other)
Should we ask only Repman or..?

Update: LOL I just realized I am using your (Taiji) own BB 2.2 Battlefield Balance so that is at least 2 people to ask for permission and I know we are supposed to ask permissions from people who produced art (sound, etc ) and graphics; if we use them but I am not sure about rest (if we only edit text files ).

[The Pied Piper]

I agree with your conclusion.

[Kjertesvein]

1.)
So is this only a tier change, or are you going to tweak the stats abit?

2.)
What are you using as a base? Taiji's BB or 6.1?

Yeah, it's a great improvement! I also think the Norwegian needs a (minor) tweak like this.

At Castle level, the Player gets the chance to recruite Swordsmen, even though they get the chance to recruite Huscarls, which is way better (AP). Unless the Swordsmen are much faster....

@Every DLV player

Any more factions that got this (morty)faction dilemma?

[Morty]

While tempting to adjust stats where there is need/room for improvement. Stats seem to be the pervue of BB or repman. I want to keep it strictly focused to moving units around within the tech tree, working with whats already there.

I would base it off of one thing really: crappiest -> less crappy -> medicore -> good -> best. In certain situations this might not make historic sense but I would take all those things into consideration. The end result would be a more logical progression in unit ability and overall strength & utility. Most factions are good as is, some need just a minor tweak, others like the Moors, TO (I've not looked at Norway nor played them to date) could use a pretty good overhaul.

As I pointed out at the end of my most recent post, wouldn't it be nice to see and use all the units in a factions roster?

Morty

P.S. I'm using the units from 6.1 combined with BB 2.2 as reference

[Snipe]

i like this, some of the current rosters didnt make sense

[Taiji]

I think you should just do it and if you think others will like it then make a thread in minimods section to present it.

If you get a good response from other players and Repman likes it then he will probably include it in a future update.

BTW "since income levels seem to be really balanced in the beginning but too high later" I completely agree with. Like you say, it does seem a tough thing to balance though.

So I think you do not need to worry about permission with this idea you have. Just make your minimod and present it, I don't see how anyone can lose out from this (especially if it makes the game harder).

[Grimblade]

I think you should just do it and if you think others will like it then make a thread in minimods section to present it.

If you get a good response from other players and Repman likes it then he will probably include it in a future update.

BTW "since income levels seem to be really balanced in the beginning but too high later" I completely agree with. Like you say, it does seem a tough thing to balance though.

So I think you do not need to worry about permission with this idea you have. Just make your minimod and present it, I don't see how anyone can lose out from this (especially if it makes the game harder).

Also I would add rebalance build orders like Morty and others mentioned.

Thank You . I do have some ideas on limiting income in late game, and some for lowering trade income just slightly in the early to balance it with higher tax income that will come from more population .
Other things would be mostly bug fixes like
teutonic_knights_hq requires factions { hre, } and event_counter governor_present 1
and adding tourney buildings to ELO. Also I would like to spread around special buildings like music buildings and banks (each to just one-two more factions to add "depth" to some factions).
And finally I would fix rosters a bit, add some units that are already in the game to factions that lack late period units without changing stats (apart from making Lancers secondary weapon AP and then nerfing it a bit and maybe changing stat_sec 12, 12 for Qapukulu unit - did you really mean to have them get bonus of 12 for charge on secondary weapon or did you just mistyped , if something is done on purpose I would not change it even if I find it strange ). I would also change unit descriptions where it is needed.

[Morty]

Grimblade do you plan on tweaking the rosters then? If so you'll be posting something to download in the mini mods forum at some point? This is good news if so. I know its a little early, but might you have an ETA?

Morty

[Grimblade]

Grimblade do you plan on tweaking the rosters then? If so you'll be posting something to download in the mini mods forum at some point? This is good news if so. I know its a little early, but might you have an ETA?

Morty

Rosters are based on Taiji's so I would first need his permission first but I am reluctant to change this since I will have to change a lot of things and I am not sure if I will have time to finish it, but then again, I could maybe still change few things. Also I would need to check where I can host things since I never moded any game before (does Filefront offer REAL free hosting or is there a catch). Few other thing that make me a bit unsure about moding are hardcoded stuff that I don't like , for example way the Creative Assembly uses bool clauses and forces you to write them is quite strange to me and counter intuitive, or way that some formulas are fixed .
Things I wanted to change are :
Easy:
Fix small bugs like Qapukulu secondary weapon bug and things like teutonic_knights_hq requires factions { hre, } and event_counter governor_present 1.
Also easy but changes a balance a bit:
Give some special buildings to smaller factions were it makes sense, so they would have more options and depth (like giving banks and maybe music buildings to Crusaders and give them ability to build jousting and tourney fields, add public baths to Russians and things like that).
Then fix descriptions for those buildings.
Make wonders more of sight to behold (increase bonuses but also cost and build times).

Really hard thing I want to change is (well hard to get right not hard to edit with Notepad ++ ) is descr_settlement_mechanics.xml to avoid clone settlements and give back game a bit of Civilization feel (since at the moment constructing buildings that give you more then 20% TOTAL health bonus doesn't impact growth, similar for High Chivarly governors, fun buildings and lots of trade and etc.). I am testing this in my Kingdom of Jerusalem game, at the moment my Jerusalem has like 64 000 + citizens (and have in mind those are only male citizens that can serve in the army so it probably has 320 000 total population which was quite respectable size back for a city back then).
Also I would nerf faction_capability trade_base_income_bonus bonus for quite a few buildings but made sure they are still useful to build. This will balance insane income you start getting after more then 100 turns.
And last, most ambitious thing is the one I might probably end up not changing is insane strength of Feudal and Chivalric Knights and similar units (heavy cavalry). While I like very strong cavalry units on the end of roster like Gothic Knights that can be balanced by cheap pike men, Feudal Knights and similar units could receive a nerf in units size so they would be a bit more balanced (like one other very popular mod has done but then again I haven't played that mod just tested it in custom battles and I also prefer other things in DLV quite a bit more).
Also few other small fixes could be added along the way.
By the way I would relay on people like YOU to find what build orders and buildings make little sense ( posts about those small inconsistencies like that would go to my mini mod section post I guess i would call it grim little fixes or something).
Have Fun .

[Grimblade]

Thanks Blackleaf-Wille. Changing pictures should not be difficult if someone (other then me ) provides art. For the rest , did you mean to ask me if I can change camera lenses in battlefield views? Because I know really little about optics and I would avoid changing things that I know really little about. Granted I still know very little about moding M2TW too, (at the moment I need to check if I can make it so that Lancers uses maces as secondary weapon models).
There are also things I could try to change but would end up only with headache ; like Battlefield AI since IMHO that would entail changing execution code for application (we can't really do that without butchering TW engine with disassemblers) itself and not just simple scripts though people should be grateful for stuff that people like Taiji managed to do with horrible Creative Assembly BAI.
When you mention factions like Flemish and Russians those two I would also like to change rosters a bit, boost late Russian archers and late heavy/missile cavalry since that is how they were balanced in original game (I do think Russians should have weak early era units but quite strong late era units). Also Flemish could use a few more STRONG units I think (since I have not tried to play them yet). I could give them Reiters I guess (UBER unit) but then I am taking away from uniqueness of German rosters, I do think sharing buildings is OK but I would like to avoid cloning rosters if I can .
Biggest problem is I can't make NEW models (takes me too much time and I am not really good at making models even with my own hands - like when I attempt to PAINt . I didn't even try yet to make any M2TW models but ages ago when Iwas little kid and tried. to make stuff (in 3dsMax I think) it hurted … A LOT.

[Taiji]

Well spotted, it should read:

"stat_sec 11, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, blunt, mace, 20, 1 ;level 8"

It's easy to work out, you just compare with another mounted level 8 mace.

But thanks for letting me know

[Kjertesvein]

@ Morty
How-to: make battle_models.MODELDB more readable

@ Grimblade

If your going to change unit description, then I might help out with some Cinematic pictures for the Flemish faction, they got some blurry pictures:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Example:

We can do the new russian and mongol after that

Here are some examples on diffrent angles:
English fuedal Knights

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

(I know, they need to be resized & croped.)

Front view:



Angled charged view:


Angled Frog view:


Armenian peasant
Passport view:

Or just find an angle you like among the rest of the others:http://totalwar.honga.net/faction.php?v=dlv&f=hre

Example:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Forlorn Hope

[Kjertesvein]

Hold on, I was thinking about doing this. Not changing the unit them self. Since you allready was thinking about changing the description, then I thinking we can collaborate.
The flemish info pictures look horrible, and to my knowledge the Russians and mongolian have new units. It could be very cool to change these I just learned how to add Unit info pictures, and I allready know how the use the Cinematic editor. The current issue, is that I only got 5 mb left on my HD. :-/