Christian Mysticism

**Vladimir Lenin** · July 03, 2009, 10:36 AM

(This is aimed at Christians to get their thoughts/opinions on Christian Mysticism, although all may feel free to respond)

I have been using the Jesus Prayer (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner), and Contemplative/Centering Prayer for about two days and I have noticed two major changes in my attitude. I tend to feel more peaceful, and I tend to feel more awake and aware. On the first day I felt terrible and absolutely horrendous, I thought of how much I have sinned against God (false pride, not loving God with my full and open heart etc.) and realized that I was no better then the Prodigal Son who strays from his father. I have also felt the need to beg for God's Forgiveness much more than normal, it's helped make me more aware of just how much I sin.

What are your thoughts and opinions Christian Mysticism? Good? Bad? Canonical? Heretical?

**Imperator Romani** · July 03, 2009, 10:40 AM

Good, that's good.

**♔Jean-Luc Picard♔** · July 03, 2009, 10:46 AM

Mysticism is simply a demonized word for faith. I personally feel more at peace in churches and other holy places. I don't know why, it just happens. I think 'mysticism' is a good thing when applied to oneself, but when it is foist on others it becomes something bad.

**Phier** · July 03, 2009, 10:58 AM

I feel the same way after I get a big project of some kind accomplished.

The difference is I got something accomplished.

**~~Ummon~~** · July 03, 2009, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Arian the Heretic

(This is aimed at Christians to get their thoughts/opinions on Christian Mysticism, although all may feel free to respond)

I have been using the Jesus Prayer (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner), and Contemplative/Centering Prayer for about two days and I have noticed two major changes in my attitude. I tend to feel more peaceful, and I tend to feel more awake and aware. On the first day I felt terrible and absolutely horrendous, I thought of how much I have sinned against God (false pride, not loving God with my full and open heart etc.) and realized that I was no better then the Prodigal Son who strays from his father. I have also felt the need to beg for God's Forgiveness much more than normal, it's helped make me more aware of just how much I sin.

What are your thoughts and opinions Christian Mysticism? Good? Bad? Canonical? Heretical?

That's the same as meditating upon the name of the Buddha of Love. Yes, it causes peace and resilience to emotional negativity.

Heretical is something else altogether.

**Tigrul** · July 03, 2009, 01:22 PM

I totally agree with Ummon. Heretical is something else entirely. For instance, it was heretical just four centuries ago, to claim that the Earth revolved around the Sun. But what you're asking about is simply... prayer. So long as you don't pray for the Earth's revolution around the Sun, you're safe from heresy.

**~~Ummon~~** · July 03, 2009, 01:27 PM

It wasn't actually heretical to claim that the earth revolves around the sun, it was stupid to insult the Pope which then made what the insulting person said likely to be labaled heretical, whatever it was.

**Tigrul** · July 03, 2009, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Ummon

It wasn't actually heretical to claim that the earth revolves around the sun, it was stupid to insult the Pope which then made what the insulting person said likely to be labaled heretical, whatever it was.

So a statement such as "to claim that the Earth revolves around the Sun is as silly as claiming that yehoshua was not born of a virgin" (paraphrased) is nothing more than the result of the ego of that which is supposed to be the messenger of god on Earth, and not the result of making an appeal to, say, Psalm 104:5.

Well... I didn't know this part, thank you!

I do have to make a statement though, in order to keep all fairness. I made the above as a biased way of making fun of something. In all fairness, there were christian figures who defended Galileo's ideas, including an abbot.

**~~Ummon~~** · July 03, 2009, 01:38 PM

Just like Galieleo's ego made him many enemies, the ego of the Pope helped persecute Galileo. It is unfortunate that ego + weakness causes personal trouble, and ego + power tends to produce trouble for others. You should perhaps protest with evolution and games theory, although spamming this thread with off-topic considerations is probably funnier.

**MaximiIian** · July 03, 2009, 01:50 PM

I find Christian mysticism to be quite interesting, even though I am not Christian myself. Without Christian mysticism, and the later development of Christian Esoterica, especially Rosicrucianism, my religion would have never come about. I find that knowing the history of Christian mystical and esoteric traditions provides greater insight to the history of my own religion.

As for you, since there are a wide number of Christian mystics that are considered saints and doctors of the church in Western Christianity, and since Eastern Christianity is avowedly more mystical in its approach, I'd say that mysticism is probably not heretical at all. If anything, it's a very devout manner of religious practice that is wholly appropriate in Christianity.

**Dracula** · July 03, 2009, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by Arian the Heretic

What are your thoughts and opinions Christian Mysticism? Good? Bad? Canonical? Heretical?

The Mysticism is the official high doctrine of the Orthodox Church. On a Council held in Constantinople in 1240 it was proclaimed that the nature of the God is undescribeable and cannot be understood by human reason or any means of it, stands higher and above anything and is not in touch with anything. That is the divine essence. On the council a represantative from Italy, Valaam, claimed on behalf of the Papacy that the divinity can be understood and explained by the reason. His teaching, valaamism was condemned by the council and approved in Rome, later incorporated in the RCC doctrine.

Contrary to that, the council, called hesyhast, proclaimed that only the energies - virtues, grace etc that are around God can be understood, explained and thought of, but the divine essence cannot, and can never be. The communion with god is a communion with he divine energy, but not with the divine essence, which stands absolutely higher and unachievable for anything created. It is though felt through the energies for those who are in contact with it, because the divinity is inseparable. However there always remains a part of god that can never be sensed, understood, felt or achieved in any way, that is the divine essence, which is a mystery.

Rome has condemned this mysticism and proclaimed it a heresy. It is still considered opposite to the catholic doctrine today.

**Bovril** · July 03, 2009, 07:48 PM

I only know about Catholic mystics, being, as I am, a western European.

However, I am a great reader of Catholic mysticism, and consider it one of the Medieval Roman Church's great contributions to humanity in general and to itself. The big names, for me, are Meister Eckhardt, Thomas a Kempis, and the unknown author of The Cloud of Unknowing, though there are so, so many more. I'm not quite sure about what the poster above is refering to when he says "Rome has condemned this mysticism and proclaimed it a heresy" as many Catholic mystics are saints, and many more Catholic saints have some mysticism in them. Also, the idea of the inexpressibility of the attributes of God that he alludes to is almost official Roman Catholic doctrine and assosiated with both Saint Augustine and Saint Thomas Aquinas, who are hardly uninfluential figures in the Roman Catholic church.

My warning to readers of the classic texts of Christian mysticism would be that mysticism is essentially experiential (hence its danger to systematic theology). Therefore, it is difficult to understand mystics without having some inkling of their experiences. Often gerat poetry makes such works worth reading regardless of their religious of philosophical import, but we must remember that, like the pragmatist and existentialist philiosophers, the mystics did not expect people with no commmon ground to understand their works. Universalism (in religious language, transcedence) is, for them, an aspiration, not a starting point, and this is contrary to the prevailing trend of institutional culture, which dominates today, and to an extent throughout the history of the middle and latter Catholic church.

**Chaigidel** · July 03, 2009, 07:53 PM

Boehme is the greatest of the protestant mystics bovril, I have been very influenced by his writings

**Hippolord** · July 03, 2009, 08:05 PM

I love Christian Mysticism, and mythology! It's filled with Angels and Demons, High and Low Councils, The clattering of Demons, and the chorus of angles. Along with may Philosophical ideals on God and Satan, and the True nature of good and evil (The universe unfolds from the Throne of God).

**Bovril** · July 03, 2009, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by Chaigidel

Boehme is the greatest of the protestant mystics bovril, I have been very influenced by his writings

I should have mentioned him as well. I was, for some reason, stuck thinking about Medieval mystics. Protestant mysticism is, for me, a complex phenonmenon, since Protestantism in its traditional sense comes close to mysticism throught its doctrine of unmediated communion with the spirit, but is not inherently mysticial (i.e. oncerned with union with the transcendent). There is a certain tension in this approach which, bizarely, I have best understood through Weber's seminal 'The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism'. Being moved by the spirit without focussing on union with the divine/aspiration towards the divine seems to me to inevitably lead to crass utilitarianism in order to demonstrate one's "Goliness" in most cases. Actually, this phenomenon has been examined in black churches in the US in depth. The shift from imitating Christ (if I may make reference again to Thomas a Kempis) to proving one's devoutness (equated with rewardedness by god) by moving away from deprevation and discrimination into privilage has been, in my opinion, and that of many observers, both divisive, and, perhaps, irreligious.

Perhaps this is the significance of the book of Job in our time. The tale of the devout man who is persecuted by God should not be forgotten. Success is not a sign of divine favour, the life of Christ tells us this, if anything. Instead our life should one of fulfilment of our existential purpose (nopt our worldy desires). To quote Simone Weil:

"God is absent form the world except in the existence in the world of those in whom his love is alive; therfore they ought to be present in the world through compassion: their compassion is the visible presence of God here below."

**Chaigidel** · July 03, 2009, 08:38 PM

there is no greater heresy than that perpetrated by the "wealth preachers"--- there is one who comes on the channel in TN which actually sells "blessed green prayer cloths" and then shows dozens of testimonials from african americans talking about all that God money they got!

but that does not take away from boehme, in particular his revelation at the rain puddle described in his magnum opus, about how the entire tale of the septuagint is one of an original reflection, when god moved over the face of the deep, creation occured -- and this mirrors theoretical physics in string theory ( in that the big bang was caused by two 10 dimensional membranes colliding within the 11th plane)

despite the horrible corruption available to the protestant faith, boehme saw some truth quite clearly.

**Bovril** · July 03, 2009, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by Chaigidel

but that does not take away from boehme

Quite so, quite so. The task of the would be Protestant mystic (an odd and probably innapropriate description, but bear with me) is a difficult one. But the succeses may be more pronounced, and this manifest in Boehme.

Of course, we must also bear in mind that to an extent Protestantism changed the face of Christianity as a whole, and in some sense we are all Protestants now. The death of the Medeival period did not only see the birth of protestantism, but the death of the mystic par excellance as well, which may be a good thing. After all, mysticism is too exclusive an experience to often be saintly in our age of alienation.

**Carpathian Wolf** · July 03, 2009, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by Arian the Heretic

(This is aimed at Christians to get their thoughts/opinions on Christian Mysticism, although all may feel free to respond)

I have been using the Jesus Prayer (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner), and Contemplative/Centering Prayer for about two days and I have noticed two major changes in my attitude. I tend to feel more peaceful, and I tend to feel more awake and aware. On the first day I felt terrible and absolutely horrendous, I thought of how much I have sinned against God (false pride, not loving God with my full and open heart etc.) and realized that I was no better then the Prodigal Son who strays from his father. I have also felt the need to beg for God's Forgiveness much more than normal, it's helped make me more aware of just how much I sin.

What are your thoughts and opinions Christian Mysticism? Good? Bad? Canonical? Heretical?

I am curious, did you click on the hesychasm link I sent you? As far as I know the mysticism you described is from Orthodox Christianity. I was wondering if you got the idea from else where or from there.

So a statement such as "to claim that the Earth revolves around the Sun is as silly as claiming that yehoshua was not born of a virgin" (paraphrased) is nothing more than the result of the ego of that which is supposed to be the messenger of god on Earth, and not the result of making an appeal to, say, Psalm 104:5.

Psalm 104:5 "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

The mind sees what it want to sees.

Nothing here says what you are saying. Also the notion that everyone thought the world was flat and that the sun revolves around the earth is a popularized myth.

**Bovril** · July 03, 2009, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Carpathian Wolf

Also the notion that everyone thought... the sun revolves around the earth is a popularized myth.

We cannot, of course, talk about 'everyone' in this context, only litterate culture for the most part. None the less, in the Ptolomeic system the sun does indeed revolve around the earth, and this system prevailed in mainsream intellectual culture untill the general acceptance of Gallileo's ideas. This was not least a result of the fact that the Ptolomeic system made better predictions and observations than the early Gallilean system. Kuhn and Feyerabend have made exemplary studies of this fact.

**Carpathian Wolf** · July 03, 2009, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by Bovril

We cannot, of course, talk about 'everyone' in this context, only litterate culture for the most part. None the less, in the Ptolomeic system the sun does indeed revolve around the earth, and this system prevailed in mainsream intellectual culture untill the general acceptance of Gallileo's ideas. This was not least a result of the fact that the Ptolomeic system made better predictions and observations than the early Gallilean system. Kuhn and Feyerabend have made exemplary studies of this fact.