In need of some perspective

[Lupus]

Always wanted to try this mod and after finding some praise and comments elsewhere on this forum, I knew it was time.
Awesome map, great readme and guides, clear explanation of options and the units are jaw dropping. .
So, there I was as Rome, following the guide to take on the Greek army.....
and there it ended. Not just once, I embarrassed to say.
Roman army gone. To add insult to injury, after the battle the Greeks hardly had a scratch. Must have a surgical team and/or trauma unit on hand.....
Searching through this forum, I found two "roman overpowered" threads and then my experience and Total Roach's thread, where he dominates the world, seems to contradict the overpowered idea (?). Great campaign, btw. What bothered me was the Roman kills.....they hardly had any.
Another thread talks about the phalanx density being less and thus being penetrable.
Losing is not the problem, btw, I would have accepted a loss or even a "Pyrrhic victory", but it just looked one sided
Unless, of course, that army was particularly strong to start the Roman campaign off with a bang?

My question...If Roman early and late armies are being kicked around like a football, are they over- or underpowered? Should I even bother continuing or find another faction?

Ps This is my longest post to date....

[CaesarVincens]

You can find large Roman empires, look in the thread called "Post your empires" to see a couple in the early pages.

You don't say what difficulty you play on, but remember that on anything harder than medium, the AI units get bonus attack.

And when you are taking on the Greek phalanges, make sure you flank them. They may be weaker than in vanilla, but they are still very strong from the front.

[Scutarii]

The battle with Pyrrhus is easily winnable if you play the terrain right, and get lucky with the elephants. I hang my velites to the side and back a bit on the same side as the ele's and then rush them forward to engage the ele's. Its okay if the velites all die, as long as they take the ele's out.

[Lupus]

For the record, I am not criticizing at all, merely trying to understand some of the dynamics at play. Using that I can then decide to go H/M or M/M.
I play on H/H with 1 hp. When I look at the hot spots and not the whole battle, I still find it hard to believe.
Greek hoplites in a closing horseshoe with two hastati and one principes, breaks all three, Phalangite, pinned and flanked beats both, 99 slingers chase off 69 Equites, skirmishers scaring the p--s out of heavy infantry, in c/combat, phalanxes operating between trees like barbarian hordes, even if the battle is lost, some pockets should at least draw some blood.
What I love for example, is I can see the AI is better. Holding the line, keeping pointy sticks down, not letting themselves be drawn after skirmishers, patience with cavalry and elephants (general is a fool still) - hopefully this the norm. Maybe that is why I am losing, the AI is on to my old tricks...
Compared to what is still to come, is this Greek army below or above average?

[Lobo Solitario]

Pyrrhus' army is rock hard compared to any other army I have faced in XGM. Once you take this one out, the others will be a cakewalk in comparison.

Some useful tips to win:
-Make sure you hold the high ground.
-Be very careful with pila usage, try to get as many kills out of them as possible, and do not waste them on lower level troops.
-Keep your velites in reserve and on hold fire to deal with elephants.
-When you get an opening, hit Pyrrhus with anything you can, and grind the cur into the dust! As long as he stands, his army will fight to the last man.

[s/laughter]

I started on VH/VH and lost that battle twice (2HP) before deciding to cut the difficulty down to H/H. still at 2 hit points...
on the first try at H/H I won handily.

this was playing as defender, by the way.. I couldn't tell from your post whether you were attacking or defending... on defense, I just backed up near the corner of the map on a hill, and fought it out... (I also have fatigue turned OFF)

[Lupus]

s/laughter, I was attacking. It gives me more time to see what they do, like Phyrrus storming the hastati, alone, twice, and his brats took revenge, big time.... I will try defense next. Fatigue is off, I am trying to see what difference the changed movements make. Jury's still out.
Thanks for the comparison, Lobo Solitario. I was scared this guy was the runt in the family and his brothers were still coming....

[Scutarii]

No wonder you lost! You were attacking! I can pull of a victory occasionally attacking on H, but if you want a sure victory with few losses (allowing you to ride your momentum to take Tarentum), take the defensive high ground and watch Pyrrhus' troops wear themselves out against your line.

[Sextus Molestus]

And be warned that while you're taking Tarentum, the Roman rebels are sure to do something from Croton.

Phyrrus has a well balanced army, and I personally rarely see the AI come up with those on its own. Defend high terrain, though, and you should be okay.

[Lupus]

I tried to get them to attack, but they sidestepped and went for the city.
Tough nut this one.
Good thing I'm stubborn
I just wish the Hastati had a little more in the tank.
Oh yeah, why does Hastati and Principes have the same attack? Shouldn't the
veterans pack a bit more punch?

[CaesarVincens]

Well, it's the pila that have the same attack rating. The secondary weapons have different ratings. Besides, Principes have more armor and better morale than Hastati.

[Sextus Molestus]

They are using the same sword, aren't they? But you make a good point - perhaps these grizzled veterans would be a bit more brutal when swinging them.

[DimeBagHo]

If you leave 2-3 units in Capua and Cannae then the Greeks will attack your army in the field instead.

[CaesarVincens]

And they are more likely to attack your army if it's in their province.

[C-Rob]

funny, i attacked them, taking the guide's advice on this forum, and phyrrus attacked me with his army, but only his heavy cav, his elephants, his skirmishers, and a few of his light troops made it to my line as his phalanx was walking too slow. i killed all of that, and then the rest of the army went back to the other side of the map and waited for me to come to them, effectively letting everything that prevented their phalanx from getting flanked die, and then giving my men the time to rest before the up hill climb and the subsequent beatdown. Phyrrus escaped with only his life, everythign else died. : ) that was on easy battle, however.

[Lupus]

Lucky you. In the first four battles they refused to break their line. One single long line. No way for me to outflank as both hastati and principes do not hold the line long enough. Try the H one.

[Subrosa Florens]

I beat Phrryhus on Hard with the Romans by hiring all the local Samnite mercenaries and moving Decius Mus' army across the border and right up next to Phrryhus. There is a hill tile just south of Cannae which I stood upon. Dirty_M has a pic of it:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Stand on that ground and Phrryhus will almost certainly attack you, and you will have the high ground. I always play with fatigue on, so his units were tired by the time they got to me. I put my slingers and velites out front to soften them up as they came, and withdrew them behind the lines when they came too near.

When I saw his elephants tried to flank me, I moved my Triarii out from the rear to extend my line in front of them. Naturally all my Hastati and Principes were set to fire at will, and so a few of them were able to give the Elephants a dose of pila before they hit home.

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My Triarii held and the Elephants went amok right back into the Greek army. One of them stomped old Phrryhus himself flat. Once all of their phalanxes engaged me head on and I flanked their left using Principes I had in reserve and rolled up their line like a carpet.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[C-Rob]

Lucky you. In the first four battles they refused to break their line. One single long line. No way for me to outflank as both hastati and principes do not hold the line long enough. Try the H one.

yeah... and again i had insane luck against them on hard as well. Here's my whole battle-

Okay, so I click start new campaign on Hard Hard.

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I move my stack onto the hill next to the enemy army, get rid of my equites, and put in my faction leader, who has the, "night fighter" trait. He'll have more command and, every little bit of morale decrease against the greeks will help, or so my thinking goes. or at least, the battle will look so much better!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I get deployed in the midle of the battle fieled, halfway up a hill in a crapton of trees, which will limit my cavalry's effectiveness, but i move my men further to the right, so that it'll be easier to mount the rest of the hill and my cavalry will be more effective in a more clear area..

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I ready my formation, moving my wings closer to the center, moving my velites back and placing my slingers up front, somewhat.

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notice my unselected hastati, that was annoying when i started the battle and it was still where my army was at the start of the deployment

I start the battle and send my army up the hill.

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The greeks start idiotically at the bottom of the hill.

The general feels a little bit too brave and heroic, and meets a very early demise

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in a hail of javelins.

So then the lines meet, and i use my generals to repeatedly hammer the backs of his units, and drive the cretans away.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

the first of his line breaks, and then the rest.

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His elephants are basically all that's left-

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Heroic victory and battle specs!

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Dead soldiers and one or two of my favorite points of the battle-

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in the back there my slingers and velites are taking on a squad of heavy cavalry, and win handedly

so yeah, phyrrus isn't that complicated. Just force him to charge up hill- he will.

[s/laughter]

you know, I think I actually lost on Hard once as well before I won the battle... I remember becoming very frustrated, it is definitely a wicked hard battle.

I would say a LOT depends on luck, with the elephants... if Pyrrhus sends them out too early, and you can drop 2 or 3 before they arrive, then you can send them running. then as long as you hold the high ground and do the usual flanking manuevers with cav you should come out with a solid win.

personally I would use my triarii as a frontline in this battle, to make sure my principe and hastati fire all their missiles.

[Lobo Solitario]

After attacking Pyrrhus on flat ground and getting ripped to pieces, I set up either in the position shown or possibly one cell to the left, higher up the hill. Pyrrhus attacked and got his Pyrrhic victory against my forces - even though I was holding a very steep hill, annihilated his elephants with my Velites with no losses and curled my flanks around his line, his troops never broke. After a long battle, my army eventually broke, although they killed a lot of Greeks first. There were some crazy scenes in that battle, with archers taking on Principes and Triarii in melee uphill and just refusing to die, or phalanxes surrounded on all four sides killing all the surrounding units.

The following battle, I managed to take out Pyrrhus in an early engagement and his forces routed after a short but bloody engagement, giving me an acceptable victory. This leads me to assume that Pyrrhus gives some crazy morale and combat bonuses to his troops, making the main priority of the battle to take him out as soon as possible. Anyone else experience this?