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  1. #1
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    Default Personal Health: Individual or State problem; Individual or State Solution

    Right to life, or rather, quality of life.

    A large number of arguments use "quality of life" in defense of universal healthcare. All such arguments are, in point of fact, based on egalitarian/utilitarian ideals that have penetrated all aspects of the modern democracy despite some rather obvious qualities that are in opposition to the spirit of individual freedom.

    My question is, why is another persons health my concern particularly if, by means of coercion, I MUST pay for that persons health at the expense of my own and my own family. At what point does my right to provide the best life for myself intersect and become subsumed by anothers right to free healthcare?

    Please leave current political healthcare details out of the argument. Let's argue the point rather than the particular.
    To be governed is to be watched, inspected, directed, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, and commanded, by creatures who have neither the right, wisdom, nor virtue to do so. To be governed is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, taxed, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, admonished, reformed, corrected, and punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be placed under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted, and robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, abused, disarmed, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, and betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, and dishonored. -Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

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    Default Re: Personal Health: Individual or State problem; Individual or State Solution

    People don't get to choose their genetics. That's when.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Personal Health: Individual or State problem; Individual or State Solution

    Quote Originally Posted by Яome kb8 View Post
    People don't get to choose their genetics. That's when.
    Thank you sir. That was actually the point I was looking for. Inequality masters our race. While we can give ourselves a measure of political equality, in all other spheres we are not equal.

    It is my contention that we should not further legislate equality in any manner that reduces us to the lowest common denominator. That is not the inspiration that created free societies. It is the aberration that is destroying it.
    To be governed is to be watched, inspected, directed, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, and commanded, by creatures who have neither the right, wisdom, nor virtue to do so. To be governed is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, taxed, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, admonished, reformed, corrected, and punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be placed under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted, and robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, abused, disarmed, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, and betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, and dishonored. -Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

  4. #4

    Default Re: Personal Health: Individual or State problem; Individual or State Solution

    Quote Originally Posted by Яome kb8 View Post
    People don't get to choose their genetics. That's when.
    Exactly. Nor do they get to choose their parents.

    Pure capitalism would make perfect sense if everybody started off the same, but nobody does. And I'm not going to blame a child for the mistakes of their parents.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Personal Health: Individual or State problem; Individual or State Solution

    When i first saw this thread title i thought it would be abput the government warning about alcohol and smoking etc. the general badgering of the populace. In which case i would have to say the government should keep it down a bit.

    However, since this is about public health service then i would view it along the lines of this: When you pay taxes some of that goes to the military right? So you're paying for the protection of the state and everyone in it right? So what's the difference between paying for everyone's protection or everyone's health?

    Just my personal opinion.
    "If I have done any noble action, that is a sufficient memorial; if I have done nothing noble, all the statues in the world will not preserve my memory."
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Personal Health: Individual or State problem; Individual or State Solution

    Quote Originally Posted by 6th Vigil View Post
    When i first saw this thread title i thought it would be abput the government warning about alcohol and smoking etc. the general badgering of the populace. In which case i would have to say the government should keep it down a bit.

    However, since this is about public health service then i would view it along the lines of this: When you pay taxes some of that goes to the military right? So you're paying for the protection of the state and everyone in it right? So what's the difference between paying for everyone's protection or everyone's health?

    Just my personal opinion.
    Why should I pay a single penny to maintain this...




    and yet why should the government get the ability to decide how we live our lives?

    My take has been and shall always be, you are free to do what you want with your body, but dont' expect anyone else to pay for it when you it up.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Personal Health: Individual or State problem; Individual or State Solution

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Why should I pay a single penny to maintain this...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    No one is asking you to. You see, everyone pays taxes. In fact obese people due to VAT and various other taxes will actually pay more tax then you. Same with smokers. They pay their own way. Smoking raises 10 billion a year for our government, the NHS is 95 billion budget. You're onyl paying for yourself, and the unfortunate amongst us who are born with problems and cannot afford the costs.

    and yet why should the government get the ability to decide how we live our lives?
    When the government and everyone else ion society foots the bill. However you're using hyperbole, the government only ever encourages, doesn't force. I.e. healthy food in schools.

    My take has been and shall always be, you are free to do what you want with your body, but dont' expect anyone else to pay for it when you it up.
    Cool. I'll let our soldiers know.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Personal Health: Individual or State problem; Individual or State Solution

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Why should I pay a single penny to maintain this...




    and yet why should the government get the ability to decide how we live our lives?

    My take has been and shall always be, you are free to do what you want with your body, but dont' expect anyone else to pay for it when you it up.
    I agree.

    Why should I pay exhorbitant National Park entrance fees to allow RVs into pristine areas, when all I ever wanted to do was escape these jackasses?

    Why should a large portion of my taxes go towards fueling endless conflicts that I do not agree with?

    Why should FEMA support idiots who continually rebuild on flood plains, year after year?

    That said, we don't invest enough in preventative health measures and end up paying the price for avoidable maladies. When it comes down to it, Americans are increasingly averse to taking personal responsibility and it's so much easier to blame the gov't or each other (thus the proliferation of assinine lawsuits...).
    Giving tax breaks to the wealthy, is like giving free dessert coupons to the morbidly obese.

    IDIOT BASTARD SON of MAVERICK

  9. #9

    Default Re: Personal Health: Individual or State problem; Individual or State Solution

    Quote Originally Posted by 6th Vigil View Post
    When i first saw this thread title i thought it would be abput the government warning about alcohol and smoking etc. the general badgering of the populace. In which case i would have to say the government should keep it down a bit.

    However, since this is about public health service then i would view it along the lines of this: When you pay taxes some of that goes to the military right? So you're paying for the protection of the state and everyone in it right? So what's the difference between paying for everyone's protection or everyone's health?

    Just my personal opinion.
    This is a pretty good post.

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    Default Re: Personal Health: Individual or State problem; Individual or State Solution

    Quote Originally Posted by 6th Vigil View Post
    When i first saw this thread title i thought it would be abput the government warning about alcohol and smoking etc. the general badgering of the populace. In which case i would have to say the government should keep it down a bit.

    However, since this is about public health service then i would view it along the lines of this: When you pay taxes some of that goes to the military right? So you're paying for the protection of the state and everyone in it right? So what's the difference between paying for everyone's protection or everyone's health?

    Just my personal opinion.
    Paying for national defense safeguards the cultural and political livelihood of all. Paying for someone else's surgery serves only one individual at the expense of others.
    To be governed is to be watched, inspected, directed, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, and commanded, by creatures who have neither the right, wisdom, nor virtue to do so. To be governed is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, taxed, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, admonished, reformed, corrected, and punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be placed under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted, and robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, abused, disarmed, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, and betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, and dishonored. -Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

  11. #11

    Default Re: Personal Health: Individual or State problem; Individual or State Solution

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Why should I pay a single penny to maintain this...




    and yet why should the government get the ability to decide how we live our lives?

    My take has been and shall always be, you are free to do what you want with your body, but dont' expect anyone else to pay for it when you it up.
    How does paying for a national health service mean the government controls how you live your lives? A national healthcare service is there for when life s you up.

    In regards to obese people it is hard to say how much their weight is actually their own fault. it could be a range of mental to physical disorders.

    however, in comparison there are no doubt some pacifists in your country right? People who would like a smaller military or none at all? Yet you pay for their defense. What's the difference between that and paying for an obese person?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nietzsche View Post
    Paying for national defense safeguards the cultural and political livelihood of all. Paying for someone else's surgery serves only one individual at the expense of others.
    People make the culture, Americans of all people should know that. You forget you're not just paying for one persons surgery you're paying for millions of people. You know the common people that make the country and usually can't pay for their own healthcare.
    "If I have done any noble action, that is a sufficient memorial; if I have done nothing noble, all the statues in the world will not preserve my memory."
    - Agesilaus II of Sparta


    "Tact is the knack of making a point without making an enemy."
    - Isaac Newton

  12. #12

    Default Re: Personal Health: Individual or State problem; Individual or State Solution

    Quote Originally Posted by 6th Vigil View Post
    How does paying for a national health service mean the government controls how you live your lives? A national healthcare service is there for when life s you up.
    You ignore the question, why should I pay for others mistakes with their health like smoking and drinking?

    In regards to obese people it is hard to say how much their weight is actually their own fault. it could be a range of mental to physical disorders.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    however, in comparison there are no doubt some pacifists in your country right? People who would like a smaller military or none at all? Yet you pay for their defense. What's the difference between that and paying for an obese person?
    Defense of the state is a necessary function of the government and tax dollars.


    People make the culture, Americans of all people should know that. You forget you're not just paying for one persons surgery you're paying for millions of people. You know the common people that make the country and usually can't pay for their own healthcare.
    What should the tax payer not pay for? Food? Housing? Entertainment? All needed things in life to keep you healthy and productive right?
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Personal Health: Individual or State problem; Individual or State Solution

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    You ignore the question, why should I pay for others mistakes with their health like smoking and drinking?
    Would you pay for the healthcare of a person who went sky diving and broke both his legs? Why should those people not get a 2nd chance. Smoking and drinking are addictions people like that need help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    You're just oversimplifying their problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Defense of the state is a necessary function of the government and tax dollars.
    How do you define what is a necessary function? If you're defending the people's lives why not pay for their health? No point defending dead people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    What should the tax payer not pay for? Food? Housing? Entertainment? All needed things in life to keep you healthy and productive right?
    Now you're just being ridiculous. I mean Entertainment? Food is something already provided to the very poor by various charities and the like. Housing is also not necessary as there are hostels and various cheap accommodation. The aim there would be attempting to lower the cost of cheap housing not by paying for it.

    You guys are really passionate about these things. Is it something left over from the red scare?
    "If I have done any noble action, that is a sufficient memorial; if I have done nothing noble, all the statues in the world will not preserve my memory."
    - Agesilaus II of Sparta


    "Tact is the knack of making a point without making an enemy."
    - Isaac Newton

  14. #14

    Default Re: Personal Health: Individual or State problem; Individual or State Solution

    Quote Originally Posted by Nietzsche View Post
    Paying for national defense safeguards the cultural and political livelihood of all.
    At the expense of other people's lives.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Personal Health: Individual or State problem; Individual or State Solution

    There have been a lot of debates and discussions recently, both on this forum and in other venues, about the state of healthcare. Looking at the rising costs of health insurance, and at the growing numbers of the uninsured, many are calling for government intervention, and the institution of a system where care is guaranteed to all - usually described as "universal" healthcare. It's a fascinating topic - the issues involved include humanitarian, financial and ideological ones. Unfortunately, debate on the subject is characterised by a startling phenomenon: one side is right, and the other is completely wrong.

    Given the importance of medicine, I feel that it would be useful to clarify this issue. I will explain clearly, and with evidence, why it is that universal healthcare of any sort would be better than the current system in every significant way. If you find yourself disagreeing with this assertion, I ask that you read on before replying, as all conceivable objections will be addressed and resolved.


    Why The Current Situation Is Bad

    At the moment, healthcare in America is provided mostly by private entities, who charge high fees. These fees can be attributed largely due to the difficulty and expense of the medical profession, and although they are significantly higher than those of similar nations this difference is only a small portion of healthcare costs. There then exists the health insurance industry, a loose network of corporations that charge individuals or organisations premiums and will pay for their health costs if any are incurred.

    Unfortunately, this system has enormous problems. As of 2006, 44.8 million people in America do not have health insurance. Many are unable to afford it, many are denied coverage by insurers who believe that as customers they will not be economical, and others choose not to purchase it. Without health insurance, the up-front costs of health care are impossible for most people to afford. In fact, 50.35% of all bankruptcies were caused, at least in part, by medical fees. In 2001, this was 2,038,549 bankruptcies.

    Furthermore, health insurance does not fully cover medical expenses. Different insurers and different plans have many exemptions, co-pays, threshholds and other expense-minimising devices. As a result, 62% of those two million bankruptcies occurred despite the debtors having health insurance coverage for the duration of their illness.

    As well as failing to provide care, and driving individuals into bankruptcy, the existing system is also exorbitantly expensive. Health care spending is now 15% of U.S. GDP - the highest in the world. The costs to businesses, who commonly pay premiums for their employees in lieu of salary, rose by 13.9% in 2003. The annual cost increase has been above inflation since at least 1981. Paying more doesn't result in more value, either - obesity, diabetes, and similar disorders are more common in the United States than anywhere else in the developed world, the U.S. is ranked 72nd in overall health, and life expectancy is below that of 41 other countries.

    What Is Universal Health Care?


    Universal Health Care, or UHC, refers to a wide range of different systems, the common characteristic of which is that a nation's government guarantees all its citizens access to healthcare. Every developed nation (OECD member) in the world, apart from the United States, has a UHC system. There are three main types:

    In a fully public system, there is no or little private healthcare, and the health insurance industry is not a significant one. Medical service providers are government employees, and the education of doctors is also subsidised. The most well known example of a fully public system is the original English NHS, although a private sector is now developing in the U.K. as well.

    In an optional public, the government provides the same services, but a private health services industry also exists (generally regulated), and . Sometimes health insurers exist, used by people who prefer private services. This is the most common, and examples include Australia and Sweden.

    In a subsidised private system, the government pays for health care, but it is provided by private entities. Either the government acts as a health insurer for the populace, or it pays the fees for private health insurers to do so. This is done in Canada.

    For the purposes of discussion, I will be assuming the characteristics of an optional public system, like those used in most of Europe. However, the benefits of UHC apply to all of the above types of organisation.

    How UHC Will Improve Things


    The single largest problem with healthcare in America is that many people don't have it. It's obvious how UHC solves this: by providing it to all citizens directly (or paying for it to be done). By definition, this is no longer a problem under UHC. All developed nations other than the United States make this guarantee to their citizens, and have so far been able to uphold it. The two reasons which make a person uninsurable - insurer decisions and lack of money - will no longer exist.

    The second major problem with the current system is its high cost. This can be divided into two parts: individual cost, and government cost - which to the individual shows up as taxation. UHC is inherently cheaper - far cheaper - due to economies of scale, the bargaining position of monopolies with regard to drugs and salaries, reduced administrative costs, and the lack of a profit motive. When it comes to individual health care costs:

    According to the World Health Organisation, average American individual spending on healthcare is $3371 per year. Since this includes the uninsured and those covered by their employers, actual costs are higher. For comparison:

    Australia: $1017

    Canada: $916

    Sweden: $532

    United Kingdom: $397

    The first of those is the second-highest in the world - meaning that Americans pay, not including taxes, more than three times as much as citizens of any other nation. This would be somewhat justifiable if they received better healthcare, but again - 28% have no care at all, life expectancy is below all other developed nations, and general health rating is below all other developed nations.

    It is commonly assumed that this difference in cost is because under UHC systems, higher taxes are required to fund the system. Not so. As mentioned, UHC is a great deal cheaper than private healthcare, and as a result America's health-related taxation is also the highest in the world. According to the OECD, in 2006, American government spending on healthcare was $2887 per person. For comparison:

    Australia: $2106

    Canada: $2338

    Sweden: $2468

    United Kingdom: $2372

    American healthcare taxes are in fact the highest in the OECD, with France second at $2714. In conclusion, every single UHC system in the world costs less money for individuals, requires lower taxes, and provides better care to more people than the American health care system. By implementing UHC in the U.S., things can only get better.

    Frequently Raised Objections


    There are many incorrect arguments against the implementation of UHC in the United States. In order to better facilitate discussion, I will explain the errors found in the most common.

    "America isn't Europe!", or It Won't Work Here The argument from American exceptionalism states that what works in Europe will not work in the U.S. It's said that this is because European nations have more people in less space, resulting in less logistical difficulties, and because European government is more competent.

    Firstly, not all developed nations are European. The most obvious example that counteracts the logistical argument is Australia, where there are 20 million people in only slightly less space than America's 300 million. This does indeed affect prices, as can be seen by comparing Australia to Sweden or the U.K. - but it doesn't bring them anywhere near the levels currently experienced in America.

    The argument that American government is uniquely incompetent, and cannot do things that every other nation in the world can do, is simply nonsense. Not only has America, and American government, achieved many things that other countries have not, America has so many resources and the improvement in care and cost from moving to UHC is so large that even with incredible inefficiencies it would still be a good idea.

    "It is immoral to force me to pay for others' healthcare." You are already paying for others' healthcare. Furthermore, you are paying far more than you would be under UHC. The U.S. government incurs massive costs from paying hospital fees when ER visitors have no money, and from the limited coverage that it provides, which cannot take advantage of economies of scale and which has to subsidise corporate profit.

    As demonstrated above, U.S. taxes devoted to healthcare are the highest in the world. Even if you choose not to have health insurance, under the current system, you are still paying more for others' healthcare than you would be paying for theirs plus your own under UHC.

    "This is socialism." It is not socialist to recognise that there is a service the free market is inefficient at providing, and to decide it should better be provided by the government. Even the most staunch libertarian admits that there are some services in this category, such as national defence.

    Secondly, it is irrelevant whether this is a "socialist" policy; it's effective. It costs less and provides better care to more people, and as a result is used literally everywhere else in the entire world. Those who want to ensure that society remains ideologically committed to market capitalism need to look for other issues, as if they cling to this one they will only end up providing evidence against their position.

    "I don't want more government bureaucracy." UHC will involve much less bureaucracy than is commonly assumed, as it can replace the existing partial systems like Medicare and also the plethora of state-specific programs. Regardless, the lives and money saved are more important than any potential expansion of the state.

    "Why don't we try making the system even more private instead? That might help." It might. However, there's no evidence to suggest it, and many reasons to presume it wouldn't. By its nature, the less publicly-supported a system, the more people will be unable to purchase health services.

    The only potential gain would be reduced costs due to some sort of market mechanism, and in practice this has never occurred; every private healthcare system that has ever existed in world history has proved inefficient and been replaced by public systems, and given the demonstrable gains that have resulted the U.S. must follow.

    "Doctors will be paid less." They probably will. In nations with UHC, doctors often earn less - for example, U.S. doctors earn 30% more than Canadian doctors - but this isn't an inherent problem. It is still one of the highest-paying professions in the world, and there are many other ways of attracting skilled people to medicine - such as subsidising their education.

    It is sometimes claimed that doctors paid less in a country with UHC will instead go elsewhere where they can be paid more, but once the U.S. has UHC there will not be an elsewhere to go.

    "Medical research is funded by the payments of the rich in the current system, and will be reduced." It is not true that most medical research is done in the United States. In 2000, U.S. research spending was $46 billion, but European spending was also $43 billion. And although U.S. research spending doubled in the last decade, the funding's efficacy has actually decreased.

    Secondarily, if the option for private healthcare still exists - and there is no reason why it should not - there will still be people choosing to pay more for a higher quality of care, faster service, et cetera. Their profits will still be reinvested in the development of new drugs, equipment and understanding of the human body, as they still are in nations with UHC today. Even in the United States, private spending accounts for only 57% of research spending.

    "With the option of private healthcare, the rich will 'opt out' and costs will go up." This isn't necessarily true at all; although private healthcare is usually allowed in UHC nations (for good reasons), it doesn't have to decrease the taxes paid by all to support the public system!

    "Other countries fix drug prices, so the US has to pay more for drugs." This is another common misconception. U.S. healthcare does not include higher pharmaceutical spending than other countries; it's around the average or even slightly lower. From the OECD:

    Canada: 17.7%

    Germany: 15.2%

    Iceland: 13.3%

    Australia: 13.3%

    US: 12.4%

    Sweden: 12%

    Ireland: 11.6%



    In Conclusion


    Thank you for reading. To those who were not previously supporters of UHC, I apologise if anything seemed condescending, but there's no shame in being wrong due to not having all the facts or having been misled. If anyone has questions feel free to ask, and hopefully we can now discuss what sort of UHC system ought to be implemented or how the political will for it can be gathered, rather than being bogged down by misconceptions about its desirability.

  16. #16
    hospik m's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Personal Health: Individual or State problem; Individual or State Solution

    I'm probably considered rather left wing for most Americans, but here it goes..

    I think the gouvernment should provide protection, law and if neccesary the basic needs for those who aren't able to provide them for themselves. This means that my gouvernment pays, at least partially, for education, infrastructure, food and housing (if really needed, for the really poor) and things like internal and external defense. But also health care.

    Health care especially, because I believe it’s a fundamental right that you as a person shouldn’t have to be ill and that if you can’t afford for it yourself, there is a organization behind you that will get you the means to make you better. I think this is really important.

    And to why it is of your concern that other people might be sick, while you might need it to. This is, I think based on the idea that we should support the weak in our community and if we ourselves find that we are in the same position, we should know that we can count on others to help us out. Solidarity. We shouldn’t always have to profit from everything we do. We should also do something even though we don’t gain from it directly.

    Therefore, yes, at first you may not benefit from helping others. But especially in these times, I find it rather strange, maybe even sad to hear, that people still don’t quite understand the meaning of helping other. It was egoism that drove us to, maybe over the edge. Please don’t let it drive us any further.

    Finally, I’d like to say that obesity is a disease. Alcoholism is a disease. We shouldn’t make anything more out of it, but certainly nothing less.
    "War is delightful to those who have had no experience of it."
    - Desiderius Erasmus

  17. #17

    Default Re: Personal Health: Individual or State problem; Individual or State Solution

    I think what is lost here is that idea of pooled risk. Health insurance makes sense only because when covering a large number of people, costs are easy to predict, and overall risk is reduced. E.g 1% of the population gets cancer each year, so an insurance company should budget in cancer treatment for 1% of its clients, which will be paid for by the 99% of people who dont get cancer. If an individual is budgeting for cancer treatment, they should take the cost of cancer treatment (say $200k) X 1%. Thats $2,000. Start adding in all other diseases and you start to see why nobody has a "personal health savings account", and instead buys insurance.

    This is why sharing healthcare costs make sense, whether it is done in the private sector or public.

    As to why you should pay for somebody who doesn't contribute anything to a healthcare plan, well in the current US system you already do. Emergency care cannot be denied to anyone, whether you can pay for it or not. Hospitals eat millions in unpaid bills each year, and to stay afloat they pass it on to those who can pay. Its a classic case of passing on the cost's to consumers, so indeed your private health insurance already has money for the poor woven into it.

    I mean the US spends almost 20% of it's GDP on healthcare, which is head and shoulders above any other large industrialized nation. In one way or another that means 1/5 of your income goes to fund America's current healthcare industry, even if it is just opportunity costs and not direct costs. It's a burden on our whole economy (look no further than GM for a real world example), and its only getting worse, and in the end every US citizen is footing the bill.
    Last edited by Sphere; July 01, 2009 at 05:44 PM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Personal Health: Individual or State problem; Individual or State Solution

    Opponents are commonly complaining about the prospect of paying for someone else's healthcare, when they are the ones that benefit. This is not some welfare program where money is taken from working people and given to the unemployed. This is also about YOUR healthcare coverage too. You also benefit strongly. There isn't much concern about the quality of public health in England or Holland, or France or Belgium or Sweden, though the option for private care is still there if you so choose to use it. A state-administered healthcare system payed for by federal funds is a terrific solution to this crisis.

    To deny the state of our healthcare as a crisis is an act of ignorance. I don't like big government either, but this is one of those majorly important things that needs to be administered. We can get rid of social security and all the other health programs we have to pay for it. There will be far less need for social security among the elderly as their healthcare will be provided for. So those expense bills will disappear. And replace social security with a mandatory retirement investment fund run through private firms.

    Public health is a public issue gentlemen.
    Last edited by Admiral Piett; July 01, 2009 at 06:25 PM.
    Heir to Noble Savage in the Imperial House of Wilpuri

  19. #19
    Deep_Red's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Personal Health: Individual or State problem; Individual or State Solution

    Quote Originally Posted by Nietzsche View Post
    Right to life, or rather, quality of life.

    A large number of arguments use "quality of life" in defense of universal healthcare. All such arguments are, in point of fact, based on egalitarian/utilitarian ideals that have penetrated all aspects of the modern democracy despite some rather obvious qualities that are in opposition to the spirit of individual freedom.

    My question is, why is another persons health my concern particularly if, by means of coercion, I MUST pay for that persons health at the expense of my own and my own family. At what point does my right to provide the best life for myself intersect and become subsumed by anothers right to free healthcare?

    Please leave current political healthcare details out of the argument. Let's argue the point rather than the particular.
    Health is a human right, no matter the cost.
    So it´s the state´s business to help all people keep their health and live on the highest standard possible. Every claim of reducing public health care or it´s abolishment includes the destruction of the social system which is a key point of functioning human societies.

    "Every state is founded on violence."
    "Stalin is the grave digger of the revolution."
    -Leon Trotsky


  20. #20
    Nietzsche's Avatar Too Human
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    Default Re: Personal Health: Individual or State problem; Individual or State Solution

    Quote Originally Posted by Deep_Red View Post
    Health is a human right, no matter the cost.
    So it´s the state´s business to help all people keep their health and live on the highest standard possible. Every claim of reducing public health care or it´s abolishment includes the destruction of the social system which is a key point of functioning human societies.
    Health is not a human right, it is derivative of being human. For some it will be good, for others poor.

    If it is your assertion that it is the state's business to help people keep their health and live at the highest standard than you should have no objections to prohibiting certain types of unhealthy behaviors, which there are many. When the state assumes control of your health, then it is well within it's right to tell you how to keep it.

    Public health is not a key point of functioning human societies when that health comes at the radical expense of those who are key earners. A society cannot afford to spend a large percentage of its GNP to support those who no longer contribute. Certainly, the society has a vested interested in keeping disease free, but most health risks are prevented via early inoculations.

    The idea that health is a right is nonsense. People die. They will continue to die. Massive public expenditure will never prevent that from happening. The arguments about quality of life become irrelevant when overall standard of living is dramatically reduced to support those who simply can't earn enough to survive.

    That sir, is a part of the human condition, not something that can be engineered.

    @Future Filmmaker: Healthcare in Sweden et al is not plagued with the unique pitfalls of the American system. Nor do they suffer the vagaries of our society with very high immigration, higher birthrate, etc. That they have managed their way into a nice tightly closed system only serves to indicate their ability to achieve equilibrium through state controls that would never pass muster here. If you find their model of state so inspiring, perhaps you should move there rather than bottoming out this countries resources by squandering them in a vain effort to achieve heaven on earth.
    Last edited by Nietzsche; July 01, 2009 at 08:22 PM.
    To be governed is to be watched, inspected, directed, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, and commanded, by creatures who have neither the right, wisdom, nor virtue to do so. To be governed is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, taxed, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, admonished, reformed, corrected, and punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be placed under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted, and robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, abused, disarmed, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, and betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, and dishonored. -Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

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