Nerd Star Wars article

It was ridiculously guilty fun reading it.

Originally Posted by Keith Martin

A New Sith, or Revenge of the Hope
Reconsidering Star Wars IV in the light of I-III

If we accept all the Star Wars films as the same canon, then a lot that happens in the original films has to be reinterpreted in the light of the prequels. As we now know, the rebel Alliance was founded by Yoda, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Bail Organa. What can readily be deduced is that their first recruit, who soon became their top field agent, was R2-D2.

Consider: at the end of RotS, Bail Organan orders 3PO's memory wiped but not R2's. He wouldn't make the distinction casually. Both droids know that Yoda and Obi-Wan are alive and are plotting sedition with the Senator from Alderaan. They know that Amidala survived long enough to have twins and could easily deduce where they went. However, R2 must make an impassioned speech to the effect that he is far more use to them with his mind intact: he has observed Palpatine and Anakin at close quarters for many years, knows much that is useful and is one of the galaxy's top experts at hacking into other people's systems. Also he can lie through his teeth with a straight face. Organa, in immediate need of espionage resources, agrees.

For the next 20 years, as far as 3PO knows, he is the property of Captain Antilles, doing protocol duties on a diplomatic transport. He is vaguely aware of the existence of the princess but doesn't know much about her. Wherever 3PO goes, being as loud and obvious as he always is, his unobtrusive little counterpart goes with him. 3PO is R2's front man. Wherever they land, R2 is passing messages between rebel sympathisers and sizing up governments as potential rebel recruits - both by personal contact and by hacking into their networks. He passes his recommendations on to Organa.

Yoda is out of the picture by this stage, using the Force-infused swamps of Dagobah to hide himself from Vader and the Emperor. Or something. He is meditating on the future and keeping in touch with Obi-Wan via the ghost of Qui-Gon Jin, which as comm systems go has the virtue of being untappable. Obi-Wan, on Tattoine, keeps in touch with Bail Organa and the other Rebel leaders by courier, of which more later.

As Star Wars opens, R2 is rushing the Death Star plans to the Rebellion. R2, not Leia. The plans are always in R2. What Leia puts into him in the early scene is only her own holographic message to Kenobi. Leia's own mission, as she says in the holographic message, is to pick up Obi-Wan and take him to Alderaan - or so she thinks. Actually, her father just wants her to meet Kenobi, which up to this point she never has. There's a reason for that.

Obi-Wan has spent the last 20 years in the Tattoine desert, keeping watch over Luke Skywalker and trying to decide on one of the three available options:
A) If Luke shows no significant access to the Force, then leave him alone in obscurity
B) If Luke shows real Force ability, then consider recruiting him as a Jedi. The rebellion needs Jedi. Now.
But, if Luke shows any signs of turning out like his father, then C) sneak into his house one fine night and chop his head off. With great regret but it'll save a lot of trouble later on.
Knowing this to be the case, Bail Organa (perhaps at the insistence of his wife) has found excuses not to send Leia to Ben for assessment of Jedi potential, largely for fear of option C.

To be fair to all concerned, Leia has shown no overt signs of a link to the Force. Luke on the other hand has. In his home-built hotrod aircraft, with no formal fighter pilot training and no decent instrumentation, Luke can regularly score centre-hits on 2-metre targets in complicated zero-altitude maneouvres. Until he attends the briefing on Yavin, Luke has no way of knowing that hardened combat pilots would consider that nearly impossible. To him it's easy. Obi-Wan, who saw Anakin's performance in the Pod Race, is nervous.

Much of Obi-Wan's behaviour in this film, and Yoda's in the next, can best be understood if they are frankly scared to death of what Luke might become. (Ben is also scared that he himself will make all the same mistakes he made with Anakin.)

Now, with the existence of the rebellion at stake, Bail Organa has finally told Leia to go see Obi-Wan and has sent her along with R2. The original plan would then be for Obi-Wan (with optional Luke and/or Leia in tow) to leave his exile and take the Death Star plans to Yavin, where they can be put to use. R2 (with Leia if Ben doesn't want to take her) would then carry on to Alderaan to maintain the cover story. The original plan does not survive contact with a large Imperial Star Destroyer.

R2 and 3PO bail out in an escape pod, landing in vaguely the right area of Tattoine, where R2's first priority is transport. He arranges to be captured by a group of Jawas and, once on board their transport, he makes a deal with them (possibly using emergency funds stored about his person) to take him where he wants to go. The Jawas refuse to go directly to Kenobi for fear of marauding Sandpeople but they agree to R2's second request : transport to the Skywalker farm. They even get to keep the purchase price if they can sell R2 and 3PO there. The Jawas shake on it and go through with the plan.

Seeing 3PO fail to recognise the farm where he worked for 10 years gives r2 a moment's amusement but, as soon as possible, he gets away and heads for Kenobi. Luke and 3PO follow, which may or may not have been part of the plan.

On first seeing R2, Obi-Wan has a twinkle in his eye and calls him "my little friend". Well, he is. However, when Luke wakes up and says that R2 claimed to be owned by an Obi-Wan Kenobi, he blandly says "I don't seem to remember ever owning a droid." Ben has in fact owned several but the remark is aimed at R2 and translates as "You keep quiet. I'm not about to tell him everything just yet." Obi-Wan thinks fast and tells Luke a version of his past that does not involve a father who became a dark lord of the Sith. He wants to examine Luke a lot more closely before he risks telling him the real truth.

Although the Death Star plans need to get to Yavin as soon as possible, Obi-Wan needs to make one more diversion first. If the Empire knows that Leia is a Rebel leader, then they also know about her father and the whole Organa family may need immediate evacuation. Fortunately, before coming to Tattoine, R2 had already arranged transport, which is waiting at Mos Eisley, under the command of the Rebellion's other chief field agent and espionage asset. Chewbacca.

20 years earlier, Chewbacca was second in command of the defence of his planet. He's there in the tactical conferences and there on the front lines and is a personal friend of Yoda's. When he needed reliable people to join the embryonic Alliance, who else would Yoda turn to but his old friend from Kashykk? Given his background, there is no way that Chewie would spend the crucial years of the rebellion as the second-in-command to (sorry Han) a low-level smuggler. Unless it's his cover. In fact, Chewie is a top-line spy and flies what is in many ways the Rebellion's best ship.

The Millenium Falcon may look like a beat-up old freighter but it can outrun any Imperial ship in normal space or hyperspace, hang in a firefight with a Star Destroyer or outmaneouvre a dozen top-of-the-line TIE fighters. It's a remarkable feat of engineering and must have cost a colossal fortune to build. How does Han come to own a ship like that? He only thinks he does, actually it's Chewie's. Half-way through RotS, we see the Falcon landing at the Senate building on Coruscant. If it's the same ship (which of course it is) then it was the personal transport of one of the senatorial delegations - a much more likely source to commission its design. That delegatino must have later joined the Rebellion and given it the use of the Falcon. In fact, if the delegation is the one from Kashykk, then the ship may have belonged to Chewbacca as early as RotS.

Han is Chewie's front man. It's much better, and safer for him, if he doesn't know what's really going on. Chewie used to work with Lando Calrissian in a similar way but Lando wanted to settle down, so Chewie arranged for him to lose the Falcon in a card game to Han Solo, an even better choice as partner. Han and Chewie's working method is pretty much what we see in the cantina scene: Chewie make the contacts and sets up the deals, then turns them over to Han who haggles over the price and gives the final yea or nay. This lets Chewie wander the seamy underside of the galaxy pretty much at will, making contacts, gathering and passing information with no-one was the wiser, especially not Han.

Chewie persuaded Han to do business with Jabba the Hutt so he could make regular runs to Tattoine, where Chewie could pass messages between Kenobi and Organa. When R2's urgent message came through only days before, the only way for Chewie to get back to Tattoine in time was to make the "mistake" that forced Han to dump his cargo to avoid capture. As a down side, this led to Solo's getting a death mark out on him from Jabba the Hutt. Chewie was a bit upset about the need for that but figured they weren't going to be dealing with Tattoine for much longer.

En route to Alderaan, R2 and Chewie play stop-motion chess. This is the latest in a series of games they've played over the year in the back rooms of space stations and cantinas across the galaxy, but this is the first time they've done it in front of their respective straight men, so they put on a big show.

Then it all goes wrong again. Alderaan is gone and the Falcon is caught and brought aboard the Death Star. Only Han, Luke and 3PO don't know just how much trouble they're in but Obi-Wan has a plan and seems confident (but Jedi always do). Soon afterwards, R2 finds Leia in the detention cells and shouts that they have to rescue her, to which Chewie can only agree. If Vader learns he has a daughter, then they're all in deep trouble, so Chewie does his bit to persuade Han to go along with Luke's plan.

Then, on the verge of escape, Vader himself turns up only yards from both of his children, one of whom is leaking Force all over the place. Obi-Wan stages a distraction by letting himself die and go into the Force while the others escape. At this point, Chewie suddenly realises that he's been left in charge, not only of the Death Star Plans and the survival of the Rebellion but of the secret son and daughter of Darth Vader. With the Organas and Kenobi all dead, only Chewie, R2 and Yoda know who Luke and Leia are. And only Ob-Wan knew where Yoda has been hiding. Chewie is stressed out by the responsibility and R2 (who keeps making crude jokes about the whole affair) is being no help at all.

Chewie's first problem is what is happening between Luke and Leia. With a psychic link they can feel but don't understand, thrown together in a life-or-death escape, they are looking at each other with a sparky intensity that Chewie gradually recognises as Romantic Tension. He's no expert on human relationships but Chewie is fairly sure that that's Wrong, so he does the only thing he can under the circumstances - he throws Han at her. Han is at first not interested but after a while starts to warm to the idea with an intensity that gives Chewie new worries.

When they reach Yavin, Han decides to take the money and run and Chewie decides to go with him. Looked at in cold light, it's for the good of the Rebellion. Even if Yavin is destroyed, there'll be one agent who knows what's going on who can try and put something back together, but he doesn't feel good about it. When Han decides to turn around and join the attack, Chewie is all for it.

Han and Luke get medals but Chewie doesn't. Actually, Leia offers him one but Chewie turns it down. He got one of those things from Yoda about 20 years ago, but there's no way he can tell her that.

As the film ends, the three founders of the Rebellion are all gone. Bail Organa is dead, Yoda is out of contact and Obi-Wan's ghost can only talk to other Jedi. (So that would be Yoda then.) Thus, the field leadership of the rebellion has just been turned over to the daughter of Darth Vader. Chewie is really hoping that someone with an official rank greater than hers will get here real soon before he has to think really seriously about option C.

I just have to point out that the author clearly is not up to snuff on his expanded universe. Another founder of the rebellion, who was instrumental in organizing its beginning was Vader's secret apprentice.

Just pointing out!

Originally Posted by The Guide

I just have to point out that the author clearly is not up to snuff on his expanded universe. Another founder of the rebellion, who was instrumental in organizing its beginning was Vader's secret apprentice.

Just pointing out!

Ugh I don't care WHAT George says, Video games don't count!

Not to mention, there's a convoluted backstory to R2 in between III and IV, in which they're doing really odd things (they fight IG-88 one minute, and are dealing with a bunch of kids the next.) Not really useful to the Rebellion stuff.

As for the Falcon, checking the Star Wars wiki it seems they've added a complicated history for it that this doesn't check out for (they've done it in the last few years because I had to check the wiki) I hate that they have to flesh out EVERYTHING related to the movies. It was so much simpler that Han won it in a card game from Lando who also won it in a card game.

And as for Chewie, he was actually enslaved by the empire for a bit there and owes a life debt to Han. It's not like he picked Han, Han saved him from getting his ass beat by the Empire.

Originally Posted by Publius Clodius Pulcher

Ugh I don't care WHAT George says, Video games don't count!

Actually, they do. Because the KOTOR series forms a big part of the EU's past bits, as do many other SW games. Either way, it doesn't invalidate the man's hypothesis in general. Only a few details, like the whole thing that Chewie was a slave and was saved by Han. It's more likely that this was a lucky coincidence for the Wookiee rebel spy, who took advantage of it to make contact with Ben.

Trying to make complete sense of the entire SW universe is an inherently futile undertaking thanks to the insane amounts of published media besides the movies and because George Lucas loves making up as he goes.

No, it's certainly possible. There's been a coherent system of continuity since the first EU materials came out and there are numerous sites, Wookieepedia among them, that keep the info organised and catalogued. It's no more futile than making sense of, say, DC or Marvel universes.

So it's the same level of futility, that's good, that makes it so much better.

Originally Posted by MaximiIian

No, it's certainly possible. There's been a coherent system of continuity since the first EU materials came out and there are numerous sites, Wookieepedia among them, that keep the info organised and catalogued. It's no more futile than making sense of, say, DC or Marvel universes.

I agree that the continuity is quite clear. There are discrepancies but the vast majority of stuff meshes well.

It is terrible when people try to get technical about this kind of sci-fi but one of the things I HATE about Star Wars are what I percieve to be massive discrepancies in some of the authors accounts of various technology in the universe. I do wish authors were more careful and thought more about what they publish rather than just using large numbers in every situation though. Everything can not be, "ZOMG, IT'S OVER 9000!!!!"

I would also say that DC and Marvel are far more complicated with all the reboots they do that invalidate large parts of cannon. Too many mutants to really keep track of? No problem, just have Scarlet Witch warp reality. And all the alternate universes and what not as well.

*Edit - And the original reason I posted was to say that it is indeed very clear that whoever wrote this article is only working from the movies. It even says that in the title. He should at least read Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising and The Last Command, my personal favorites lol.

Originally Posted by Mitth'raw'nuruodo

It is terrible when people try to get technical about this kind of sci-fi but one of the things I HATE about Star Wars are what I percieve to be massive discrepancies in some of the authors accounts of various technology in the universe. I do wish authors were more careful and thought more about what they publish rather than just using large numbers in every situation though. Everything can not be, "ZOMG, IT'S OVER 9000!!!!"

I agree the discrepancies are bad, but I'm going to have to disagree about the large numbers, the numbers involved actually need to be much, much larger.

For example, the numbers mentioned for the Clone army is ridiculous, 1.2 million clones? That's not even enough to invade Europe, much less fight a galaxy spanning war. It has to be AT LEAST 1000x that many.

Also with your Thrawn stories, the fact that these 200 dreadnoughts (which are under 1/5 the size of Star Destroyers) are considered a major force in a galaxy with millions of populated worlds is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by the_mango55

For example, the numbers mentioned for the Clone army is ridiculous, 1.2 million clones? That's not even enough to invade Europe, much less fight a galaxy spanning war. It has to be AT LEAST 1000x that many.

Rofl 1.2 million clones? Then North Korea's army is twice as big as that of the Republic. About 8 times as big if you count reserve troops.

Originally Posted by the_mango55

I agree the discrepancies are bad, but I'm going to have to disagree about the large numbers, the numbers involved actually need to be much, much larger.

For example, the numbers mentioned for the Clone army is ridiculous, 1.2 million clones? That's not even enough to invade Europe, much less fight a galaxy spanning war. It has to be AT LEAST 1000x that many.

Also with your Thrawn stories, the fact that these 200 dreadnoughts (which are under 1/5 the size of Star Destroyers) are considered a major force in a galaxy with millions of populated worlds is ridiculous.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Accla...s_assault_ship

Read the offensive and defensive section. 200 gigatons. Per. Shot. Yet somehow missiles that are used to destroy fighters at very close ranges are able to punch through the shields of ships that are much larger and more powerful (Imperial I class) with relative ease. A squadron of X-Wings can at least locally take the shields of an ImpStar by firing 24 proton torpedoes. but somehow fights between these behemoths can last for quite a while. So unless the technology reverted from Acclamator to ImpStar then there is simply no way this would work as the X-Wings would immolate themselves by firing on other starfighters as the explosive force to take down the shields on an ImpStar would be titanic.

Also this 200 gigaton per shot number negates the need for a Death Star. An Acclamator has twelve such banks of weapons that have a recharge time of a couple of seconds. A small group of these would undoubtedley be able to render a planet completely sterile in a matter of minutes. I really would not be surprised if that much firepower could in fact just crack the planet open. I realize the Death Star was a terror weapon but really, I mean come on. If it is this easy to do why bother with such a huge station.

I suppose I should have been more specific in what I consider over the top because I actually agree with you about the Clone army and the Katana Fleet. The clone number problem is at least partially remedied by the fact that the droid army is orders of magnitude smaller than what the Separatists claim. They address this in the books about clones by Karen Traviss. It is still shenanigans though. Many tens of billions at least would at least be a start. There were also individuals in the Grand Army of the Republic who were not clones, Gilad Pellaeon for example. But yea, those two things in particular are ridiculously underpowered. Also not to be picky but an Imperial Star Destroyer is only 2 2/3 times longer than a Dreadnaught Heavy Cruiser.

Originally Posted by the_mango55

For example, the numbers mentioned for the Clone army is ridiculous, 1.2 million clones?

well, they actually said units, not troopers. Units (technically) could be anything from 1 to 100.

Actually this article made a lot of sense to me, I've only seen the movies (all of them) and if you think about it, the guy makes a good point.

Exactly, but if you take the numbers given in AotC at face value, that's how many there were at Kamino (She told Obi-wan there were 200,000 "units" ready with 1 million more ready soon).

Some have suggested that "unit" actually might mean company or battalion, which is much more believable, but the Novel suggests that unit meant individual. And some minimalist EU writers, like mandalorian wank writer Karen Traviss take that figure and run with it, using it to justify making each clone a Fett level warrior.

the 200 gigaton figure came from the AotC incredible cross sections. Written by Curtis Saxton, who also wrote the SW Technical Commentaries (which are awesome).

There's no reason to assume the interior shields of Coruscant would be as powerful as the external ones. Ships can fire both energy and projectile weapons while their shields are up.

Also, consider the battle of Hoth, the Imperials attacked with the Executor and several ISD's, but they couldn't get through the Rebel's theater shields, so they had to drop a ground attack force on another part of the planet to get under the shields.

Plus there's already a fleet of executors (at least by the 3rd film)
Luke: "Vader's on that ship"
Han: "Don't get jumpy, there are a lot of command ships"
The Death star is an extra, and is meant to be a symbol.

As for Traviss, I don't consider something canon when it contradicts higher canon. Traviss' figures simply cannot be correct when compared to what we see on screen in RotS. Even if we assume that there's literally no other clones in any other part of the galaxy besides the ones we see, the 1.2-3 million clone figure just doesn't cover it.

Well you are right about the length, but if you look at my post I said under 1/5 the size, then you corrected me.

Originally Posted by the_mango55

the 200 gigaton figure came from the AotC incredible cross sections. Written by Curtis Saxton, who also wrote the SW Technical Commentaries (which are awesome).

If you knew why ask? I believe you in that they are awesome.

Originally Posted by the_mango55

There's no reason to assume the interior shields of Coruscant would be as powerful as the external ones. Ships can fire both energy and projectile weapons while their shields are up.

There is also no reason to assume they are not. The Alliance had taken Coruscant fairly recently and the Empire might be interested in keeping people in as much as out. Supposingly hyper velocity cannons cannot fire while their particle shields are up. This is revealed when the Fifth Fleet is doing it's exercises in Before the Storm. Perhaps Lusanya went through Coruscant's particle shield. Hmmmm. I remember the shielding system around Coruscant being dual layer but not if one was an energy shield and the other a particle or if both layers had both types in them. If that info was ever even stated.

Originally Posted by the_mango55

Also, consider the battle of Hoth, the Imperials attacked with the Executor and several ISD's, but they couldn't get through the Rebel's theater shields, so they had to drop a ground attack force on another part of the planet to get under the shields.

This is true. I would view this as another inconsistency in the power of weaponry. Let me explain. The Executor class supposingly has the power output of a medium sized star yet they are able to have their shields taken down by much weaker ships. Considering the small size of the base at Hoth (it was able to be loaded onto a handful of Galofree's) there is no way that base could produce enough power to power a shield that could handle an Executor. Or even that the Alliance could afford such a power system. Or that such a power source would fit in their base.

Originally Posted by the_mango55

Plus there's already a fleet of executors (at least by the 3rd film)
Luke: "Vader's on that ship"
Han: "Don't get jumpy, there are a lot of command ships"
The Death star is an extra, and is meant to be a symbol.

Command Ships are not automatically Executor Class. Exact numbers are not given but the Empire never had that many Executors. Ships that are referred to as Super Star destroyers are common, but since the retconn about the length of the Executors it is very unclear what is what.

[QUOTE=the_mango55;5474000]As for Traviss, I don't consider something canon when it contradicts higher canon. Traviss' figures simply cannot be correct when compared to what we see on screen in RotS. Even if we assume that there's literally no other clones in any other part of the galaxy besides the ones we see, the 1.2-3 million clone figure just doesn't cover it.

Dude, I totally agree but her stuff is still cannon. She did not even come up with those numbers though. She just ran with them.

Originally Posted by the_mango55

Well you are right about the length, but if you look at my post I said under 1/5 the size, then you corrected me.

This is my fault since I equated your saying size to length. My apologies.

I think that is all I wanted to say. I can't really remember though as I am at work and keep getting interupted by inconsiderate people.

Originally Posted by Mitth'raw'nuruodo

There is also no reason to assume they are not. The Alliance had taken Coruscant fairly recently and the Empire might be interested in keeping people in as much as out. Supposingly hyper velocity cannons cannot fire while their particle shields are up. This is revealed when the Fifth Fleet is doing it's exercises in Before the Storm. Perhaps Lusanya went through Coruscant's particle shield. Hmmmm. I remember the shielding system around Coruscant being dual layer but not if one was an energy shield and the other a particle or if both layers had both types in them. If that info was ever even stated.

Well remember that the Lusy went through only a small portion of Coruscant's shielding, and also that the main planetary shields take immense amounts of power and are usually kept down when not directly threaten. I figured someone with Thrawn's name as their avatar would remember his tactic of besieging Coruscant with cloaked asteroids so they had to keep the shields up. That would imply that most of the time, the shields are down.

This is true. I would view this as another inconsistency in the power of weaponry. Let me explain. The Executor class supposingly has the power output of a medium sized star yet they are able to have their shields taken down by much weaker ships. Considering the small size of the base at Hoth (it was able to be loaded onto a handful of Galofree's) there is no way that base could produce enough power to power a shield that could handle an Executor. Or even that the Alliance could afford such a power system. Or that such a power source would fit in their base.

But the Death Star and Super Star Destroyers are two entirely different kinds of weapons platforms. Think of it this way. The Executor is a boxer who fights with jabs. He can strike often and in different places easily. The Death Star is a power fighter who relies on one big punch to knock out his opponent. The Executor can't focus all it's turbolasers in the same spot (physically impossible) and lacks a superlaser. The best it can do is orbitally bombard and devastate the surrounding area, which is rendered ineffective due to shielding.

Command Ships are not automatically Executor Class. Exact numbers are not given but the Empire never had that many Executors. Ships that are referred to as Super Star destroyers are common, but since the retconn about the length of the Executors it is very unclear what is what.

True, I think that only one or maybe two SSDs were at Endor, Executor was just the command ship.

I just love the technical debates that SW fanboys throws out every now and then. It's essentially just insane numbers and figures that someone pulled out of their arse to supercede everyone else, and had Lucas approve it. It's so utterly retarded...

Military speaking SW is amongst the worst of the Sci-fi genres and certainly in the top 5 of the most ridicules. Starship Troopers is a lot more beliveable and their military seems a hell of a lot more effecient at fighting... Storm troopers would have no chance against M.I.

Originally Posted by Holger Danske

I just love the technical debates that SW fanboys throws out every now and then. It's essentially just insane numbers and figures that someone pulled out of their arse to supercede everyone else, and had Lucas approve it. It's so utterly retarded...

Military speaking SW is amongst the worst of the Sci-fi genres and certainly in the top 5 of the most ridicules. Starship Troopers is a lot more beliveable and their military seems a hell of a lot more effecient at fighting... Storm troopers would have no chance against M.I.

wait for the last 5 or so seconds.

Originally Posted by Holger Danske

I just love the technical debates that SW fanboys throws out every now and then. It's essentially just insane numbers and figures that someone pulled out of their arse to supercede everyone else, and had Lucas approve it. It's so utterly retarded...

Military speaking SW is amongst the worst of the Sci-fi genres and certainly in the top 5 of the most ridicules. Starship Troopers is a lot more beliveable and their military seems a hell of a lot more effecient at fighting... Storm troopers would have no chance against M.I.

The problem with Storm Troopers in the original trilogy is that their standard targets had invincible plot armor. Look at the difference in performance between boarding Leia's ship at the beginning of the first movie and anytime they fought against the heroes.

And which numbers are you considering insane?