Dawkins helps subsidise Humanist summer camp

[TWoxy]

Wasn't sure where to post this, but thought it would be of interest to those who frequent the Ethos. Article from today's Times:

There’ll be no tent for God at Camp Dawkins

Britain’s most prominent non-believer is backing its first atheist summer camp for children.

When schoolchildren break up for their summer holidays at the end of next month, India Jago, aged 12, and her brother Peter, 11, will be taking a vacation with a twist.
While their friends jet off to Spain or the Greek islands, the siblings will be hunting for imaginary unicorns in Somerset, while learning about moral philosophy. The Jagos, from Basingstoke, Hampshire, are among 24 children who will be taking part in Britain’s first summer camp for atheists.
The five-day retreat is being subsidised by Richard Dawkins, the evolutionary biologist and author of The God Delusion, and is intended to provide an alternative to faith-based summer camps normally run by the Scouts and Christian groups.
Crispian Jago, an IT consultant, is hoping the experience will enrich his two children. I’m very keen on not indoctrinating them with religion or creeds,” he said this weekend. “I would rather equip them with the tools to learn how to think, not what to think.”
While afternoons at the camp will involve familiar activities such as canoeing and swimming, the youngsters’ mornings will be spent debunking supernatural phenomena such as the formation of crop circles and telepathy. Even Uri Geller’s apparent ability to bend spoons with his mind will come under scrutiny.
The emphasis on critical thinking is epitomised by a test called the Invisible Unicorn Challenge. Children will be told by camp leaders that the area around their tents is inhabited by two unicorns. The activities of these creatures, of which there will be no physical evidence, will be regularly discussed by organisers, yet the children will be asked to prove that the unicorns do not exist. Anyone who manages to prove this will win a £10 note - which features an image of Charles Darwin, the father of evolutionary theory - signed by Dawkins, a former professor of the public understanding of science at Oxford University.
“The unicorns are not necessarily a metaphor for God, they are to show kids that you can’t prove a negative,” said Saman-tha Stein, who is leading next month’s camp at the Mill on the Brue outdoor activity centre close to Bruton, Somerset.
“We are not trying to bash religion, but it encourages people to believe in a lot of things for which there is no evidence.”
Stein, 23, a postgraduate psychology student from London, was inspired to work at an atheist summer camp in America after reading The God Delusion, the bestselling book that sealed Dawkins’s reputation as Britain’s most prominent non-believer. Stein is now helping to bring the US concept, called Camp Quest, to Britain as an alternative to faith-based children’s retreats.
The Scout Association, which has 500,000 members who collectively spend 2m nights camping out each year, is Britain’s biggest organiser of children’s camps. All new Scouts - whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim or from another religious background - are required to pledge to do their “duty” to their god or faith. Atheism, however, is not accounted for in this induction oath.
Christian organisations that run summer camps include the Church Pastoral Aid Society, an evangelical group, which operates 100 schemes attended by about 9,000 children.
Camp Quest was founded in America, where Bible classes and Christian retreats are widespread, by Edwin Kagin, an atheist lawyer from Kentucky.
Since launching in 1996, Camp Quest operates at six different US sites, with a new camp due to open in Florida at Christmas.
Amanda Metskas is currently supervising 71 children at a Camp Quest project in Clarkesville, Ohio. Her classes include a session called Socrates Cafe, which debates issues such as definitions of knowledge, art and justice. “We teach them that even people like Sir David Attenborough are religious sceptics,” said Metskas.
Kagin, 68, the son of a church minister, will be visiting the camp in Somerset next month.“Richard Dawkins has made a contribution towards the setting up of the camp in England, but I think now the idea has a momentum of its own,” he said.
A week-long stay at the Mill on the Brue Activity Centre normally costs more than £500, but parents who have booked their children on the Camp Quest package are paying £275. Next year Stein hopes to run atheist camps at Easter and during school half-term breaks.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle6591231.ece

Thoughts?

_________________________________


Update: Richard Dawkins responded to the article in the letters section of the Sunday Times today:

Your article Dawkins Sets Up Kids’ Camp to Groom Atheists (News, last week) begins with the Jesuitical opening line: “Give Richard Dawkins a child for a week’s summer camp and he will try to give you an atheist for life.” Camp Quest, is not inspired by me or influenced by me. The British version, run by Samantha Stein, follows the American model founded by Edwin and Helen Kagin, of Kentucky.

I gave the following quote to Lois Rogers: “Camp Quest encourages children to think for themselves, sceptically and rationally. There is no indoctrination, just encouragement to be open-minded, while having fun.” Isn’t that about as far from Jesuitical grooming as you could imagine? One of my dominant motivations is an abhorrence of childhood indoctrination, of atheism just as much as of religion. It is in this spirit that the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science has made very modest contributions to Camp Quest.

Richard Dawkins
Oxford

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article6637768.ece

[Helm]

What so they turn up, they're told there isn't God, then they camp out doing nothing in particular?

[TWoxy]

What so they turn up, they're told there isn't God, then they camp out doing nothing in particular?

No. There is a fairly detailed summary of the activites on offer at the camp in the article, if you'd care to read it.

[Helm]

No. There is a fairly detailed summary of the activites on offer at the camp in the article, if you'd care to read it.

If they do anything else it turns into some kind of ant-religious thing. And who would send their kids to something like that anyway?

[Playfishpaste]

If they do anything else it turns into some kind of ant-religious thing. And who would send their kids to something like that anyway?

It's not an atheist camp, it's a humanism+science and logic camp.

It's basically a summer school course in basic philosophy and naturalism, I'd send a kid there.

[IrishHitman]

It's not an atheist camp, it's a humanism+science and logic camp.

It's basically a summer school course in basic philosophy and naturalism, I'd send a kid there.

Quoted for truth.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

Looks like the Dawkins Haters are on the warpath again, armed (as usual) with ignorance and prejudice.

First, let's look at the mission statement of the enterprise he's helping to support:

"Camp Quest’s mission statement declares that the camp is “dedicated to improving the human condition through rational inquiry, critical and creative thinking, scientific method, self-respect, ethics, competency, democracy, free speech, and the separation of religion and government"
(What is Camp Quest?)

Gosh, that sounds just awful. Fancy getting kids to focus on things like rational thought, critical thinking, self-respect, free speech and ethics. What is Dawkins thinking?

Actually, there are some members of TWC who could do with a couple of weeks at Camp Quest ...

What so they turn up, they're told there isn't God, then they camp out doing nothing in particular?

Er no.

"The camp’s programmes and activities also include what is usual for summer camps: campfires, canoeing, crafts, drama, games, nature hikes, singing, and swimming."

So a bit like what we did at Scout camps as a kid, but minus the lectures about God and duty to the Queen. Sounds pretty wholesome and sensible to me.

But camps don't really work for atheism, they're to instill morals and character. "humanism camp" would be much better.

Which is precisely what Camp Quest is.

How ing retarded. They've become as bad as the fundies.

Teach them science, not atheism.

"Camp Quest’s aim is to get campers thinking and asking themselves questions, while equiping them with the tools to go off and come to their own conclusions about a wide range of topics.
There is no ‘atheist dogma’ or agenda, but an atmosphere of inquiry is created and the campers are encouraged to discuss ideas of interest to them."

Exactly; these people complain about "indoctrination," that that is precisely what they are doing as well. There is no difference between this sort of militant atheism and other religions imo. Thus, they are doing what they condemn religious people for doing.

"'Do you have to be an atheist to attend?'

Not at all, we would welcome children from families who may hold any religious belief.

Both the parents and the children wishing to attend camp would have to understand that the ethos of Camp Quest is to discuss and question ideas. Our aim is to inspire children to leave with questions and a keen interest in finding the answers."

I'm failing to see any "indoctrination" there.

It would be better to just have "Nothing to do with religion" camp.

Minus the bits about learning critical thinking and analysis skills? Given some of the posts I see on these forums every day, I'd say anything that teaches some rational analysis, sceptical thinking and critical examination of claims would be a good thing. So what the hell is wrong with combining that with a summer camp?

Once again the reflexive Dawkins Haters have presented a lot of snarling and whining and nothing that makes a lick of sense.

[VALIS]

Looks like the Dawkins Haters are on the warpath again, armed (as usual) with ignorance and prejudice.

First, let's look at the mission statement of the enterprise he's helping to support:

"Camp Quest’s mission statement declares that the camp is “dedicated to improving the human condition through rational inquiry, critical and creative thinking, scientific method, self-respect, ethics, competency, democracy, free speech, and the separation of religion and government"
(What is Camp Quest?)

Gosh, that sounds just awful. Fancy getting kids to focus on things like rational thought, critical thinking, self-respect, free speech and ethics. What is Dawkins thinking?

Actually, there are some members of TWC who could do with a couple of weeks at Camp Quest ...



Er no.

"The camp’s programmes and activities also include what is usual for summer camps: campfires, canoeing, crafts, drama, games, nature hikes, singing, and swimming."

So a bit like what we did at Scout camps as a kid, but minus the lectures about God and duty to the Queen. Sounds pretty wholesome and sensible to me.



Which is precisely what Camp Quest is.



"Camp Quest’s aim is to get campers thinking and asking themselves questions, while equiping them with the tools to go off and come to their own conclusions about a wide range of topics.
There is no ‘atheist dogma’ or agenda, but an atmosphere of inquiry is created and the campers are encouraged to discuss ideas of interest to them."



"'Do you have to be an atheist to attend?'

Not at all, we would welcome children from families who may hold any religious belief.

Both the parents and the children wishing to attend camp would have to understand that the ethos of Camp Quest is to discuss and question ideas. Our aim is to inspire children to leave with questions and a keen interest in finding the answers."

I'm failing to see any "indoctrination" there.



Minus the bits about learning critical thinking and analysis skills? Given some of the posts I see on these forums every day, I'd say anything that teaches some rational analysis, sceptical thinking and critical examination of claims would be a good thing. So what the hell is wrong with combining that with a summer camp?

Once again the reflexive Dawkins Haters have presented a lot of snarling and whining and nothing that makes a lick of sense.

Come on Thiuds, I am an Atheist and this is just silly, I don't see how this is any different than Bible summer camp. The facts it's designed for kids to essentially teach them about atheism is not what any secular group should be going for, infact, it's what we've been criticizing for years concerning the religious.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

Come on Thiuds, I am an Atheist and this is just silly, I don't see how this is any different than Bible summer camp.

I do. Bible summer camp happily tells kids what to think. This one, from all the evidence available, makes some effort to avoid that, to encourage discussion and debate and to teach them how to think - by critically examinging and analysing. Big difference.

The facts it's designed for kids to essentially teach them about atheism

If that's a "fact" then can you provide me with some evidence? Because the only evidence I can see on whether the camp teaches atheism says quite clearly that it does not.

[nopasties]

It has got to be beter than Jesus Camp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujS6URPcSUc

[Machiavelli25]

I dont know about you people, but this camp sounds boring as . Especially for a young child.

Maybe Dawkins should focus on an Atheist theme park or something.

[Rich86]

What so they turn up, they're told there isn't God, then they camp out doing nothing in particular?

Er...no - they turn up and mess around with cannoes etc and get taught Philosophy & Critical Thinking etc.

Teaching atheism to children is as stupid (imo) as teaching them a religion.

They're not being taught atheism - they're being taught rational thought, they're being taught philosophy, they're being taught how to think for themselves.

Let them choose their own way and stop imposing your beliefs on them.

Sorry what belief exactly is being imposed upon them?

Exactly; these people complain about "indoctrination," that that is precisely what they are doing as well.

What are they being indocrinated to believe again?

Just another piece of Dawkins' crusade against Religion.

Well, I'm pleased that someone views teaching children how to think for themselves as being 'against religion'

I do like the idea but can children really understand moral philosophy? Isn't that the reason why we tell them "this is good, this is bad, and there are no shades of gray".

Why couldn't they understand moral philosophy? It depends on the child - some will understand it easily, others will need it explained using easier to understand, child friendly metaphors etc.

This is beyond stupid. Atheists/secularists are supposed to be against this sort of organised indoctrination

Teaching critical thinking is indoctrination? In that case I spent two years at college being 'indoctrinated' - and got an A in 'indoctrination' for my troubles.

we are supposed to be free thinkers opposed to the nonsense dogmatic beliefs of the majority and their mantra.

And where do you see anything about dogmatic beliefs in this camp? They are not teaching anything dogmatic at all.

This is almost like becoming a religion.

How is it?

Looks like the Dawkins Haters are on the warpath again, armed (as usual) with ignorance and prejudice.

Did youreally expect anything else? I wonder how many posts it will take until we get someone criticing him and his book and then revealing they've never read his book (as I've lost count of how many people I've seen do that).

I don't see how this is any different than Bible summer camp

Because there's no indoctrination? There's no teaching of mindless dogma?

The facts it's designed for kids to essentially teach them about atheism

Where did it say that? It said it's trying to teach the kids about rational thinking and skeptical enquiry.

What would happen if the debate turned to something biblical and someone expressed a theistic view?

Well you probably think they'd take the child out and execute him...

I'm guessing we'd get the usual Dawkins style rhetoric of "you don't understand anything, moron"

Yes because that's what Dawkins says all the time

I seriously doubt this camp will teach kids how to think critically

Why do you doubt that?

this is just going to brainwash them

? How is it going to do that? Brainwash them to think for themselves? What?

[Ummon]

? How is it going to do that? Brainwash them to think for themselves? What?

Here is the only reasonable argument, so we'll be precisely describing why, in order to avoid pseudo-intellectual claims of superiority of this peculiar approach to child education.

First of all: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulo_Freire

In Paedagogy, it is widely held that any approach is ideological.

"There is no such thing as a neutral education process. Education either functions as an instrument which is used to facilitate the integration of generations into the logic of the present system and bring about conformity to it, or it becomes the ‘practice of freedom’, the means by which men and women deal critically with reality and discover how to participate in the transformation of their world."

It is possible to ideologically teach logic, by giving a partial representation of the field. For example, if I teach a classification of logical fallacies but I exclude some of them, the result is not proper logic, but a maimed logical system. I can thus pick and choose those elements I wish to support my arguments in other fields.

As an example, you can consider that if I teach to kids that it is impossible to refute God just as it is impossible to refute unicorns, this is already teaching an incomplete logical structure.

Incomplete logical structures suffer of the same problem which makes that solving this puzzle is difficult for the large majority of people: http://www.dcu.ie/ctyi/puzzles/general/9dotpuz.htm

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Once you start reducing your frame of reference, all those solutions which are outside it subjectively disappear from your attention frame.

By avoiding to introduce the statistical concept of falsification, and the concept of significance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_significance

In statistics, a result is called statistically significant if it is unlikely to have occurred by chance. "A statistically significant difference" simply means there is statistical evidence that there is a difference; it does not mean the difference is necessarily large, important, or significant in the common meaning of the word.

The significance level of a test is a traditional frequentist statistical hypothesis testing concept. In simple cases, it is defined as the probability of making a decision to reject the null hypothesis when the null hypothesis is actually true (a decision known as a Type I error, or "false positive determination"). The decision is often made using the p-value: if the p-value is less than the significance level, then the null hypothesis is rejected. The smaller the p-value, the more significant the result is said to be.

In more complicated, but practically important cases, the significance level of a test is a probability such that the probability of making a decision to reject the null hypothesis when the null hypothesis is actually true is no more than the stated probability. This allows for those applications where the probability of deciding to reject may be much smaller than the significance level for some sets of assumptions encompassed within the null hypothesis.

We would need to discuss Bayesian probability trees and in particular: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_probability

P(H | D) is the posterior probability: the probability that the hypothesis is true, given the data and the previous state of belief about the hypothesis.
P(D) is the prior probability of witnessing the data D under all possible hypotheses. Given any exhaustive set of mutually exclusive hypotheses Hi, we have:



We can consider i here to index alternative worlds, of which there is exactly one which we inhabit, and Hi is the hypothesis that we are in the world i. P(D,Hi) is then the probability that we are in the world i and witness the data. Since the set of alternative worlds was assumed to be mutually exclusive and exhaustive, the above formula is a case of the law of alternatives.

And: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_total_probability

The camp already tries to introduce a fallacy: that the impossibility for the falsification of God is identical in logical terms with the impossibility of the falsification of unicorns.

Given that statistically and locally it is possible to falsify unicorns but not God, the two concepts are asimmetrical. Therefore the camp already shows to be prone to teach incorrect reasoning.

And this is why, unfortunately, I wouldn't send any kid there. Because when we teach we should teach truthfully, regardless of our intent, with peace of flaming pseudointellectuals here.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

The camp already tries to introduce a fallacy: that the impossibility for the falsification of God is identical in logical terms with the impossibility of the falsification of unicorns.

Given that statistically and locally it is possible to falsify unicorns but not God, the two concepts are asimmetrical. Therefore the camp already shows to be prone to teach incorrect reasoning.

And this is why, unfortunately, I wouldn't send any kid there. Because when we teach we should teach truthfully, regardless of our intent, with peace of flaming pseudointellectuals here.

"A crying child begs to be allowed to leave Uncle Ummon's Summer Camp for Non-pseudointellectuals
Ummon can't understand the camp's failure - blames Dawkins."

[sephodwyrm]

So long as the children are taught that the universe is what it is and not what we think it is I think it's a good start for their rational education.

I wished I went to such camps when I was a kid.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Awesome!

Maybe they will replace some of these stupid Bible schools they have here in the summer. I would attend a class like that. Reverse indoctrination would be good in Georgia.

[Playfishpaste]

They'll probably introduce them to some good logical progressions.

But camps don't really work for atheism, they're to instill morals and character. "humanism camp" would be much better.

[Stavroforos]

Teaching atheism to children is as stupid (imo) as teaching them a religion. Let them choose their own way and stop imposing your beliefs on them.

[CtrlAltDe1337]

Teaching atheism to children is as stupid (imo) as teaching them a religion. Let them choose their own way and stop imposing your beliefs on them.

Exactly; these people complain about "indoctrination," that that is precisely what they are doing as well. There is no difference between this sort of militant atheism and other religions imo. Thus, they are doing what they condemn religious people for doing.

[TWoxy]

Agreed. The thread title is a bit hyperbolic and incorrect in retrospect, as was the Times article's headline.