Is tolkien a racist?

[Mac-Picsou]

Some numbers of people in topic who was dedicated to another subject had began this debate, so i post a new thread to discuss of it.

Personally, i know that tolkien was certainly racist, in his book, the top race are often blue eyes, yellow hair mens. and the evil was always black hair, or tanned skin, even when this is not logical(in the book the dunlendings are black hairs and tanned but they live in the north!Fortunately, dunlendings in TATW are more mixed).

Yes i know, he said that the bad men was not bad in their hearth, but when you read the book, you feel the racism, Rhun men are chinese/mongols, harad are Oriental/african people. I heard that sauron was black when he was in a human form. I also know that Tolkien hated the French but this is normal, after all he's british...

Ok now, can we blame tolkien for his racism? We have to look the context, the period. Begin of the 20th century, in england who is a country who's well-known for his racism(sorry for english people here but just see actuality and you will see that there is a lot of racism histories, in newspaper, particullary).
Personally, it just disturb me a little bit but this is not a reason to stop reading the Lord of the ring and to stop enjoy his universe!

[Arto]

Some numbers of people in topic who was dedicated to another subject had began this debate, so i post a new thread to discuss of it.

Personally, i know that tolkien was certainly racist, in his book, the top race are often blue eyes, yellow hair mens. and the evil was always black hair, or tanned skin, even when this is not logical(in the book the dunlendings are black hairs and tanned but they live in the north!Fortunately, dunlendings in TATW are more mixed).

Yes i know, he said that the bad men was not bad in their hearth, but when you read the book, you feel the racism, Rhun men are chinese/mongols, harad are Oriental/african people. I heard that sauron was black when he was in a human form. I also know that Tolkien hated the French but this is normal, after all he's british...

Ok now, can we blame tolkien for his racism? We have to look the context, the period. Begin of the 20th century, in england who is a country who's well-known for his racism(sorry for english people here but just see actuality and you will see that there is a lot of racism histories, in newspaper, particullary).
Personally, it just disturb me a little bit but this is not a reason to stop reading the Lord of the ring and to stop enjoy his universe!

But who are the Turks than?

[Ahlerich]

But who are the Turks than?

khand

[Caml3]

The appearance of Rhun and Harad in the movies had little to do with Tolkein's discription. I'm currently reading "The Siege of Gondor" from RotK, and aside from the color of their banners and the fact that they are "grim" or somesuch, he never describes the men of the South and East in any great detail. As for "Aryan" people being the good guys the Middle men/Northmen are the only ones with blue eyes and fair hair, while the Dunedain (the best men of all) have black hair and grey eyes, so sorry, but you're wrong on that count. I'm not saying he's not, he did grow up in South Africa after all, but a lot of what you mentioned simply doesn't appear in the books.

On the appearance of Rhun and Harad, the movie designers took great pains not to draw too much from any one culture or region. Harad's primary inspiration were Arabic/N. African cultures, Native Central Americans, and some Pacific Island that uses lots of wicker armor. As for the East, they certainly look rather Asian, but nailing down exactly what kind of Asian is difficult. It's all the the Appendices for RotK.

[bard]

I don't believe Tolkien was a racist. Black is used as a sign of evil simply because its the colour of the dark and the shadow which are often used to represent evil. I can't remember the exact quote but I remember reading something in which Tolkien said he totally condemned the racism ideology.
The rohirrim have blond hair because they're based off Viking culture who possessed a high proportion of blond haired people. Dark hair is definitely not a sign of evil people, its a common feature of the Dunedain, Aragorn has black hair.

[sirfiggin]

I don't believe Tolkien was a racist. Black is used as a sign of evil simply because its the colour of the dark and the shadow which are often used to represent evil. I can't remember the exact quote but I remember reading something in which Tolkien said he totally condemned the racism ideology.
The rohirrim have blond hair because they're based off Viking culture who possessed a high proportion of blond haired people. Dark hair is definitely not a sign of evil people, its a common feature of the Dunedain, Aragorn has black hair.

The Rohirrim were meant to look like Anglo saxons (In their general appearance and gear) Also they had an influence from the Gothic nation (rep for anyone who can think of a battle where a dying empire fought off an immense horde from the east with the help of a nation of germanic horsemen...)

[Æsir]

The Rohirrim were meant to look like Anglo saxons (In their general appearance and gear) Also they had an influence from the Gothic nation (rep for anyone who can think of a battle where a dying empire fought off an immense horde from the east with the help of a nation of germanic horsemen...)

Theodoric (sic!) the Great, king of the Ostrogoths was last hope for a reunited Roman Empire.
EDIT: Year 493.

Rep me?

[Aeglos]

I do not think that Tolkien was purposefully being racist. The good peoples of the rohirrim were a fair people with blond hair and blue eyes like you stated however the Gondorians had dark hair and an olive complexion. Tolkien also repeatedly states that all men can be corrupted whether they are good or evil. The men of the east and south (Rhun and Harad) do seem to have similarities with Afican / Asian peoples however this just reinforces the complete mythology and world that Tolkien has created.
Anyway these are just my thoughts.
Also, why do you think that the British hate the French?

[Blackomur89]

This is not at all true. First of all the Noldor, the most powerful Elves of Middle-earth, were dark haired, not blonde and blue-eyed, and the same goes for the most powerful Men, the Númenóreans (and later the men of Gondor), who were also dark haired. As for Sauron, he had the form of a fair Elf before the War of the Ring, when he was called Annatar, the "Father of Gifts" (so evil could be fair and beautiful too).

Besides, the very thing that clearly states Tolkien was not a racist is the strong friendship created between Legolas and Gimli, an Elf and a Dwarf, two races who were supposed to be enemies since the First Age.

I don't believe Tolkien was a racist. Black is used as a sign of evil simply because its the colour of the dark and the shadow which are often used to represent evil. I can't remember the exact quote but I remember reading something in which Tolkien said he totally condemned the racism ideology.
The rohirrim have blond hair because they're based off Viking culture who possessed a high proportion of blond haired people. Dark hair is definitely not a sign of evil people, its a common feature of the Dunedain, Aragorn has black hair.

I do not think that Tolkien was purposefully being racist. The good peoples of the rohirrim were a fair people with blond hair and blue eyes like you stated however the Gondorians had dark hair and an olive complexion. Tolkien also repeatedly states that all men can be corrupted whether they are good or evil. The men of the east and south (Rhun and Harad) do seem to have similarities with Afican / Asian peoples however this just reinforces the complete mythology and world that Tolkien has created.
Anyway these are just my thoughts.

All very good points. There you go Tolkein was not a racist people just like to make things up about fmus people and make sandals of them. I say this thread is ripe for closing. Dear captain if you'll have the pleasure the bridge is yours.

[jinjo]

aragorn and gimli has dark hair....
it's absurdity
who told u rhun are mongols/chinese and harad african people?

[Aeglos]

who told u rhun are mongols/chinese and harad african people?

the movies

[LuckyNinja]

Rephrased: Why should we like the French?

ANyways, I agree in that Tolkien was not racist, having failed to make any great analysis of each of the peoples. Additionally, as pointed out above, the Rohirrim weer based off of the Vikings, whereas the Gondorians lean towards the more southern-central european look

[Momus]

does it reli matter? i mean if you go looking for something in a book that is 'hidden in plain sight' as it were, you will find it. I mean people have said sam and frodo are gay....right


why cant people just enjoy reading the books and stop reading into the way tolkien has portrayed certain people. He is from a different time, there are bound to be references etc from the day that are no longer considered acceptable or are frowned upon. So yes he probably was 'institutionally racist' but so were most people back in the day. and the gay thing......very frowned upon in society at that time and he was quite a devout catholic from my reading so that is wrong. thankfully society has changed to accept other peoples choices

[Ellin Athinaios]

Some numbers of people in topic who was dedicated to another subject had began this debate, so i post a new thread to discuss of it.

Personally, i know that tolkien was certainly racist, in his book, the top race are often blue eyes, yellow hair mens. and the evil was always black hair, or tanned skin, even when this is not logical(in the book the dunlendings are black hairs and tanned but they live in the north!Fortunately, dunlendings in TATW are more mixed).

Yes i know, he said that the bad men was not bad in their hearth, but when you read the book, you feel the racism, Rhun men are chinese/mongols, harad are Oriental/african people. I heard that sauron was black when he was in a human form. I also know that Tolkien hated the French but this is normal, after all he's british...

Ok now, can we blame tolkien for his racism? We have to look the context, the period. Begin of the 20th century, in england who is a country who's well-known for his racism(sorry for english people here but just see actuality and you will see that there is a lot of racism histories, in newspaper, particullary).
Personally, it just disturb me a little bit but this is not a reason to stop reading the Lord of the ring and to stop enjoy his universe!

This is not at all true. First of all the Noldor, the most powerful Elves of Middle-earth, were dark haired, not blonde and blue-eyed, and the same goes for the most powerful Men, the Númenóreans (and later the men of Gondor), who were also dark haired. As for Sauron, he had the form of a fair Elf before the War of the Ring, when he was called Annatar, the "Father of Gifts" (so evil could be fair and beautiful too).

Besides, the very thing that clearly states Tolkien was not a racist is the strong friendship created between Legolas and Gimli, an Elf and a Dwarf, two races who were supposed to be enemies since the First Age.

[Aeglos]

This is not at all true. First of all the Noldor, the most powerful Elves of Middle-earth, were dark haired, not blonde and blue-eyed, and the same goes for the most powerful Men, the Númenóreans (and later the men of Gondor), who were also dark haired. As for Sauron, he had the form of a fair Elf before the War of the Ring, when he was called Annatar, the "Father of Gifts" (so evil could be fair and beautiful too).

Besides, the very thing that clearly states Tolkien was not a racist is the strong friendship created between Legolas and Gimli, an Elf and a Dwarf, two races who were supposed to be enemies since the First Age.

Very true. Well put.

[nutranurse]

Yeah, this is rather silly. Take it from a black guy who loves Tolkien: he was not a racist so far as his work goes.

[Lord de Lyonesse]

Straight answer, No

If you look at his work yeah there was racial prejudice undoubteldly if compare his work with things of reality, but to me his work was a source of escape and so should not really be compared with the world we live in today..

[CommanderSela]

to answer the question, maybe Tolkien was a racist. But we don't know for sure since he wrote the book not the movie. However he was a facist. During the spanish civil war, he sided with Franco and the cleric-nationalist. He was against democracy or socialism and industrialization (he believed both came together) because it destroy the natural order of humanity. In his mind, we should not be slaves in factories working and living in miserable conditions and destroying nature (remember the working classes in the 1930's were living and working in awful conditions), but to live in healthy conditions as farmers. If you look the propaganda proposed by the fascist and cleric-nationalist countries during the 1930's, the ideal man is healthy, strong and a farmer, raising his families in a peaceful and clean environment. Next time you read the books or watch the movies, try to identify what ideology he proposed, how the economy should be run, what is the "good" social organization; what is bad and what the bad guys represent; what are the quality of a head of state? All that said, i do like Tolkien works but i don't share his simplistic view of mankind.

[MasterOfNone]

This was debated on the old FATW forums long ago - everything repeats itself

Tolkien was a traditionalist, a Christian and disliked forms of control - feeling very strongly that government should never become a state unto itself (as it has become in our day).

I believe he was not only a learned man but a wise one too. I've read plenty of his comments on history/religion/politics/society and must say I find them very insightful, wise and agreeable.

Readers might find this article interesting:

http://www.routledge-ny.com/ref/tolkien/politics.html

Here's a few excerpts:

"I am not a 'socialist' in any sense - being adverse to 'planning' (as must be plain) most of all because the 'planners', when they acquire power, become so bad..."

The English political philosopher with whom Tolkien was most in harmony was probably Edmund Burke, a whig (ie "Liberal" in the old sense which included minimal government, not the modern American sense of left-wing and State-interventionist). Burke saw society as an organic whole, whose liberties and rights were to be cherished and whose faults were to be remedied with the utmost care, not a machine that could be torn down and re-jigged by radical social engineering...

I think, had I met him, we would have agreed on much.

There's a thoughtful article on the question of Tolkien and racism here which may be of interest:
http://stason.org/TULARC/education-b...his-works.html

[Warmaster Tibs]

I dont belive he was a racist but I do belive he was biased, as are we all.