VARIAGMOD: UNITS for RTW - new skins & models

[melqart]

Wow..saying very nice units is really depreciative. Simply amazing...some of the best models and skins ever seen !!!! Fantastic job guys !!

[Tenerife_Boy]

not some but the best!! or give an example of comparison

[melqart]

not some but the best!! or give an example of comparison

Yeah...Agreed..I didn't want to say..so clear....Ah those russians..ah..ah

[swhunter]

Will the pilos be introduced into the Spartan Army as well as Corinth, Athens, Thebes?
Beautiful units!

[Mr.Gorby]

Will the pilos be introduced into the Spartan Army as well as Corinth, Athens, Thebes?
Beautiful units!

There is a variant of such helmet on this screenshot, look on the right side:
http://s44.radikal.ru/i103/0906/06/d1ce58bb3e3c.jpg

There were helmets pilos and such kind and the form

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...C_Guttmann.jpg

[swhunter]

There is a variant of such helmet on this screenshot, look on the right side:
http://s44.radikal.ru/i103/0906/06/d1ce58bb3e3c.jpg

There were helmets pilos and such kind and the form

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...C_Guttmann.jpg

Yes we have those.
Some plumed and some not.
Not to get into a big discussion but do you have Ospreys Book on the Spartans? I highly recommend it.
It's an excellent book with tombs, ark work, of warrior's having no plume. And of course with others that do.
In Rs Mod we have both hoplites plumed and not.

BTW love the units!

[Tenerife_Boy]

do you really like that helmet??? is awfull

[swhunter]

do you really like that helmet??? is awfull

First of all, for all units? No. But historically speaking most Spartans had that helm, and other Greeks also. From records from the past it was a very common helm( See info on R.S. Mod/Spartan faction)
The Corinth. helm was used by the Kings guard,and and others who could afford it. Same as the brass armor for the chest, not everyone could afford it. Most common was the linothorex. Since it was cheap and easy to maintain.
Don't get me wrong, I love the Corinth helm. and many others also.
What it does is give you more types of helms which adds to the realism.
I love the ideas here with different types and styles of the plume and shields, and armour,which also was common.
I hated the pilos a few year's ago, but after i started researching it, and received a book called Osprey's Spartans, i was hooked.

[Dog Fart]

yeah but the pilos helmet sucks

[Solo1906]

I think for the period Variag is doing the Corinthian helm is correct - the pilos helm doesnt show up in mass until the pelloponnesian (sp) war, where the corinthian lost favor because of weight and its sight and hearing restrictions. Hoplites started to equip themselves with lighter armour varients so that they could pursue missile troops, so Linothorax started to become the norm.

I agree with the majority, it is just damned ugly, and makes your troops look like a bunch of manouvering cone heads, but historically it cant be ignored.

[swhunter]

Agreed and agreed.
On both points.

[swhunter]

Here are some info I used along with others that support.
BTW i love the Corinth Helm. It's just not everyone had it.

are some points on the Spartans armour/ Pilos

The Pilos Helmet and the Spartan Hoplites


Column: Armor by Nikolaos Markoulakis | on Jun 24, 05:45 PM |







After the celebrated opening and the expected success of the 300, a great number of individuals started to consider seriously to gain some knowledge for ancient Sparta, and especially on Spartan warfare.

We watched Frank Miller’s three hundredth Spartans ‘semi-naked’, equipped with a sword, Corinthian typed helmet and the eminent shield with the Greek letter Λ. Few days later, documentaries points out the historical equipment and armour used by the Spartans, by emphasising the one used at Thermopylae. We can, therefore, take two examples of academic based documentaries discussing the Spartan hoplites’ armour at the time of the legendary battle of Thermopylae, all were made by the History Channel: the Spartan Army and the Last Stand of the 300. In both cases, regardless the well produced and presented reconstruction, they lack to mention the extensive use of the pilos helmet.

It is evidence that from the early fifth century B.C.E. the Spartan armour — as well as of the rest of the Greek hoplites — changed. The alterations were mainly focused on the weight of the armour. Full metal breastplates were mainly abandoned (Hdt. vii 226.2) because of the extended heat and heaviness. The Corinthian helmet, with no doubt, was a well made defensive item, which also provided a status of richness to the hoplite, because it was appropriate to be decorated. However, its use started to fall in the actual action as was uncomfortable for the raising communication demands and continues change of formations.

We know that at Thermopylae few of the Spartans were equipped with linothorax (linen body armour) but not with metal breastplates. The rest of the Lakedemonians had no more than their metal helmet, spear, sword and shield. The Greek armies had to achieve light weight and at the same time maximum protection. Therefore, it is logical to believe that the shield and helmet were the most essential defence equipment at that time.


A rider, perhaps a Dioskouros,
wearing a pilos and riding a horse
to the left
9ca. 400 B.C. – 300 B.C.)
From Sparta in
Svoronos 1903-12, 635, pl. 140.

The pilos was in use from the 6th century B.C. and was also used from various Greek-like armoured Mediterranean armies. Goldstein in ‘An Etruscan Helmet in the McDaniel Collection’ (Harvard Studies in Classical Philology, Vol. 72., 1968, pp. 383-390.) provides an outstanding examination of this type of helmet taking an example of a perfectly preserved Etruscan pilos helmet. From her study we know that the helmets were constructed mainly by bronze (82.5%), 9.0% of tin, 3.0% of lead and 1.0% of iron. The dimensions seems to be standardized. The construction, which is not yet fully examined, was made presumably by a single flat piece of bronze, which was then shaped on an egg-shaped base. The two formed sides were then met in a neatly formed crest. The end form indicates that this type of helmet, the pilos, never had cheekpieces. The simple shape was divided by one ridge which circles the shape in the third lower part forming a light shaped brim.

The pilos helmet was depicted numerous times as the main hoplites’ item from the early 5th century to the late 4th, on stelai, relief and situlae. It is also evidence on relief and stelai of the use of horse-hair crest, lophos with this type.

The early supposition that the helmet derived from the pilos hats (mainly as depicted to a number of Arcadian figurines in Loeffer, ‘The Museum’s Classical Collection’, Bulleting of the Rhode Island School of Design, 1965, fg.3, pp.4-5) cannot be accepted as valid if we take in granted the extreme complex development of the helmet design in Greece, Italy.

More precisely, in Sparta, as Cartledge sates, the pilos helmet was in extreme use and maybe was the only type used for a period of time from the Lakonian hoplites (see ‘Hoplites and He
The Pilos Helmet and the Spartan Hoplites


Column: Armor by Nikolaos Markoulakis | on Jun 24, 05:45 PM |







After the celebrated opening and the expected success of the 300, a great number of individuals started to consider seriously to gain some knowledge for ancient Sparta, and especially on Spartan warfare.

We watched Frank Miller’s three hundredth Spartans ‘semi-naked’, equipped with a sword, Corinthian typed helmet and the eminent shield with the Greek letter Λ. Few days later, documentaries points out the historical equipment and armour used by the Spartans, by emphasising the one used at Thermopylae. We can, therefore, take two examples of academic based documentaries discussing the Spartan hoplites’ armour at the time of the legendary battle of Thermopylae, all were made by the History Channel: the Spartan Army and the Last Stand of the 300. In both cases, regardless the well produced and presented reconstruction, they lack to mention the extensive use of the pilos helmet.

It is evidence that from the early fifth century B.C.E. the Spartan armour — as well as of the rest of the Greek hoplites — changed. The alterations were mainly focused on the weight of the armour. Full metal breastplates were mainly abandoned (Hdt. vii 226.2) because of the extended heat and heaviness. The Corinthian helmet, with no doubt, was a well made defensive item, which also provided a status of richness to the hoplite, because it was appropriate to be decorated. However, its use started to fall in the actual action as was uncomfortable for the raising communication demands and continues change of formations.

We know that at Thermopylae few of the Spartans were equipped with linothorax (linen body armour) but not with metal breastplates. The rest of the Lakedemonians had no more than their metal helmet, spear, sword and shield. The Greek armies had to achieve light weight and at the same time maximum protection. Therefore, it is logical to believe that the shield and helmet were the most essential defence equipment at that time.


A rider, perhaps a Dioskouros,
wearing a pilos and riding a horse
to the left
9ca. 400 B.C. – 300 B.C.)
From Sparta in
Svoronos 1903-12, 635, pl. 140.

The pilos was in use from the 6th century B.C. and was also used from various Greek-like armoured Mediterranean armies. Goldstein in ‘An Etruscan Helmet in the McDaniel Collection’ (Harvard Studies in Classical Philology, Vol. 72., 1968, pp. 383-390.) provides an outstanding examination of this type of helmet taking an example of a perfectly preserved Etruscan pilos helmet. From her study we know that the helmets were constructed mainly by bronze (82.5%), 9.0% of tin, 3.0% of lead and 1.0% of iron. The dimensions seems to be standardized. The construction, which is not yet fully examined, was made presumably by a single flat piece of bronze, which was then shaped on an egg-shaped base. The two formed sides were then met in a neatly formed crest. The end form indicates that this type of helmet, the pilos, never had cheekpieces. The simple shape was divided by one ridge which circles the shape in the third lower part forming a light shaped brim.

The pilos helmet was depicted numerous times as the main hoplites’ item from the early 5th century to the late 4th, on stelai, relief and situlae. It is also evidence on relief and stelai of the use of horse-hair crest, lophos with this type.

The early supposition that the helmet derived from the pilos hats (mainly as depicted to a number of Arcadian figurines in Loeffer, ‘The Museum’s Classical Collection’, Bulleting of the Rhode Island School of Design, 1965, fg.3, pp.4-5) cannot be accepted as valid if we take in granted the extreme complex development of the helmet design in Greece, Italy.

More precisely, in Sparta, as Cartledge sates, the pilos helmet was in extreme use and maybe was the only type used for a period of time from the Lakonian hoplites (see ‘Hoplites and Heroes: Sparta’s Contribution to the Technique of Ancient Warfare’, in The Journal of Hellenic Studies, Vol. 97., 1977, pp. 11-27). Thucydides when mentioned the battle at Pylos (c. 425) described the with vivid colours the scene:
roes: Sparta’s Contribution to the Technique of Ancient Warfare’, in The Journal of Hellenic Studies, Vol. 97., 1977, pp. 11-27). Thucydides when mentioned the battle at Pylos (c. 425) described the with vivid colours the scene:

There are many friezes that show them in exactly that gear.

Case in point... A hoplite leaving for war holding the hand of his wife.


And from Kervnos.....

This is his tomb depicting him found in Athens, Attica. There are Spartans who were dressed in the exact same attire.
Go Minerwars Go! A 6DOF game of space mining and shooting. SAKA Co-FC, Koinon Hellenon FC, Epeiros FC. RS Hellenistic Historian K.I.S.S.


Here is another site on the pilos.

http://spartanswab.blogspot.com/2005/11/and-stops.html




http://www.twcenter.net/forums/editp...postid=6593499


[edit] Greece

The pilos (Greek πῖλος, felt) was a common conical travelling hat in Ancient Greece. The pilos is the brimless version of the petasos. It could be made of felt or leather. Their pilos cap identifies the Dioscuri, Castor and Pollux, in sculptures, bas-reliefs and vase-paintings; their caps were already explained in Antiquity as the remnants of the egg from which they hatched.[1] The pilos appears on votive figurines of boys at the sanctuary of the kabeiri at Thebes, the Kabeirion.[2]
In warfare, the pilos was often worn by the peltast light infantry, in conjunction with the exomis. The pilos cap was sometimes worn under the helmet by hoplites, but usually they preferred to not use a helmet along with the cap before the 5th century for reasons of mobility.
The pilos helmet was made in the same shape as the original cap. It probably originated from Lakonia and was made from bronze. The pilos helmet was extensively adopted by the Spartan army in the fifth century BC and worn by them until the end of the Classical era.
[edit] Rome

In Ancient Rome, a slave was freed by a master in a ceremony that included placing the pileus on the former slave’s shaved head. This was a form of extra-legal manumission (the manumissio minus justa) considered less legally sound than manumission in a court of law.
One 19th century dictionary of classical antiquity states:
Among the Romans the cap of felt was the emblem of liberty. When a slave obtained his freedom he had his head shaved, and wore instead of his hair an undyed pileus (πίλεον λευκόν, Diodorus Siculus Exc. Leg. 22 p. 625, ed. Wess.; Plaut. Amphit. I.1.306; Persius, V.82). Hence the phrase servos ad pileum vocare is a summons to liberty, by which slaves were frequently called upon to take up arms with a promise of liberty (Liv. XXIV.32). The figure of Liberty on some of the coins of Antoninus Pius, struck A.D. 145, holds this cap in the right hand.[3]


Greek Helmets


Corinthian Of all the Greek helmets, the Corinthian is probably the most recognized. It was probably first developed in the 8th century BC. Each helmet was custom made for the man who was to wear it. It took a great degree of skill to fshion the helmet from one single piece of bronze. Early in the helmet’s career there were two types of crests. One layed flush on the crown arcing from front to back. The other type was worn high, curling forward at the top. Around the 5th century BC we see representations of Spartans wearing crests transversly, arcing from one side to the other. This was probably a sign of high rank. When not in use, these helmets could be pushed back to rest on the head. This is the position common in greek art as it allows the viewer to see a face. The helmet itself was very strong, but it had some serious drawbacks. The small eyeholes seriously impaired the wearer's vision AND left him practically deaf. After the 5th century the use of the Corinthian helmet fell out of use in favor of more lightweight, open-face types.
Illyrian
This greek helmet originated in the Peloponese in the 7th century BC. Unlike the corinthian, the Illyrian was made in two pieces joined together at the crown. The crest always ran from front to back, flush to the helmet in order to help protect the seam. There were also two ridges running along either side of the seam to provide extra protection.

Chalcidian
“Chalcidian” is a modern name refering to the type of vases on which this helmet is often seen. It was used mostly by the western Greeks and Italians. This took the basic form of the Corinthian helmet, rounded the cheek guards and formed openings for the ears. They often were made with ram heads embossed on the cheek pieces. The temple and forehead were also often deocrated with relief lines.
Pilos
Greek armorers found much inspiration in civilian hats. The pilos helmet is based on a felt hat of the same name. The Spartans are said to have started wearing this helmet in the mid 5th century. It was soon after adopted by other Greeks of the Peloponese. This particaular example has attacments for a crest.

Petasus
The petasus was a wide-brimmed hat worn to keep the sun away while working in the fields, traveling etc. The form of this hat was also appeared as a helmet. It was worn by Greek horsemen and lt. Infantry in the 5th century. Interestingly enough, some of these helmets were covered in fabric to give the appearnce of being nothing more than a cloth hat. This is indicated by helmets that have bee found with holes for stitching.

Beotian
The Beotian was especially favored by the cavalry because of its great visibility. It was a popular helmet, used also by the Romans until the end time of Republic.





Thracian
Developed in the 5th century BC, the Thracian was based on a form of cap worn in... you guessed it, Thrace. The cap was made of a soft material most often rising to a forward pointing peak. It was re-enforced by a band or hem running across the head. The helmet repeated this from in bronze.

Phrygian
During the mid 4th century BC there was a return to more heavy armor. This Phrygian began showng up during this time and soon became the most common helmet used by the Macedonians and the Greeks.

[Conqistador]

wow great research on the greek helmets, this could be useful!


+rep

[Kylan271]

Lol,I second the motion,compiled neatly in one place,rapt...didn't know much about helmet types. This is inspiring.

[Tenerife_Boy]

Thanks for the research

[swhunter]

Thank you gents.
I'm not speaking against what has been done here, I love these Corinth helms, and their color and style is what it was back then. The Greeks had so many different types of design and color and style, it has been truly a mind opening experience to who they truly were.
Kernovos and I at R.S. tired our best over a year of research to find who, what, and why
they were. In fighting,armour,helms, and government.
Since RTW engine isn't like MTW with the aid of having different types of warriors in a unit.
I feel having one or two true Greek units using the pilos is a great idea.
Along with all the different helms you have now.
If you have the slots.
We found the pilos- with plumes and some without.
Most without plumes were just regular infa. where plumes showed a position in command.
Osperys book on hoplites, also Spartans are the best I have seen.

[Neo]

swhunter
Thank you for the historical information. I have already implemented all of these helmets.
Female archer, mercenary.

[swhunter]

swhunter
Thank you for the historical information. I have already implemented all of these helmets.
Female archer, mercenary.

This is different. For what faction?

[Conqistador]

wow this female archers are very "good" - Subrosa woud like'em

[Legio]

the faces are well done.