Why the hate for poor people?

[Count of Montesano]

Ok, I've decided to ask the flip question to the "Why the hate for rich people?" thread. Why do so many Americans demonize the poor, blaming them for the current credit crisis, government deficits, and the country's healthcare woes?

Personally, I think the poor make easy targets - it's easy to say welfare spending is bankrupting America instead of taking a hard look at military spending, corporate bailouts, or fraud/waste/abuse. It's easy to blame the poor for the subprime crisis and ignore the absolute greed and short-sightedness of the financial sector. It's easy to say that the poor are destroying America's healthcare system and ignore the fact that many of the working poor cannot afford healthcare. It's easy to demonize all poor people for being lazy/on drugs/criminals when the majority actually do work, just in low-skilled jobs with no benefits. There's also never any mention of the lingering affects of racism, or that in a global economy glutted with cheap labor, it's not that easy anymore to pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

Anyhow, interested in your comments.

[jankren]

I hate poor people who are poor because of their irresponsible way of life. I mean if you already know you dont make much money then BE CAREFUL WITH IT! Dont throw the little money you have on new car, new house, costly vacation, etc.

[Trey]

Eh, I think middle class in America gets it the worst. When you really think about it, the middle class is basically a glorified lower class. Quite a few middle class people I know are a paycheck away from the streets.
@Jankren
That sums up too many Americans. I simply can't believe how stupid people are with their money, going on credit as if they never have to pay it back, Goddamn, you don't even need to be educated it's just common sense.

[The Devil's Sergeant]

I don't hate poor people, I hate the consistantly poor choices they make that make them poor.

T. Harv Eker, author of Secrets of the Millionaire Mind: Mastering the Inner Game of Wealth, believes wealthy people inherently think differently about money. We each have a unique “financial blueprint,” which is created over a lifetime of our exposure to money messages. Eker lists 17 ways that wealthy people behave and think about money:

1. Wealthy people believe, “I create my life.” Poor people believe, “Life happens to me.”
2. Wealthy people play the money game to win. Poor people play the money game to not lose.
3. Wealthy people are committed to being rich. Poor people want to be rich.
4. Wealthy people think big. Poor people think small.
5. Wealthy people focus on opportunities. Poor people focus on obstacles.
6. Wealthy people admire other rich and successful people. Poor people resent rich and successful people.
7. Wealthy people associate with positive, successful people. Poor people associate with negative or unsuccessful people.
8. Wealthy people are willing to promote themselves and their value. Poor people think negatively about selling and promotion.
9. Wealthy people are bigger than their problems. Poor people are smaller than their problems.
10. Wealthy people are excellent receivers. Poor people are poor receivers.
11. Wealthy people choose to get paid based on results. Poor people choose to get paid based on time.
12. Wealthy people think “both”. Poor people think “either/or”.
13. Wealthy people focus on their net worth. Poor people focus on their working income.
14. Wealthy people manage their money well. Poor people mismanage their money well.
15. Wealthy people have their money work hard for them. Poor people work hard for their money.
16. Wealthy people act in spite of fear. Poor people let fear stop them.
17. Wealthy people constantly learn and grow. Poor people think they already know.

[Каие]

In the UK benefit fraud costs us £800 million a year yet various Tax frauds by the various rich costs us estimated between £25 billion and £37 billion. But we still concentrate on the former and blame the poor.

I do hate poor people, I hate the consistantly poor choices they make that make them poor.

Did you come out of the 17th century? Seriously? What is this tripe?

[Phier]

In the UK benefit fraud costs us £800 million a year. various Tax frauds by the various rich costs us estimated between £25 billion and £37 billion.

While we all know all the numbers are pulled out of someones nether region as estimates, even if true, you should know what the difference is.

[Каие]

While we all know all the numbers are pulled out of someones nether region as estimates, even if true, you should know what the difference is.

I'll tell you what the difference is. Welfare fraud is defined as overpayment or over claiming on available benefits. The Welfare department is instructed to chase up over payments of less than £100 even on tax credits. The department chasing up welfare fraud, and over payment and mistakes wastes about 5 times more than is lost in welfare fraud in the first place. But the department on tax fraud is instructed to ignore any single tax avoidance below £30,000 and is a far smaller team for what is a bigger problem. Our Defence Budget is £31 billion.

I forgot the "not!"

Make some sense man!

[magpie]

They are a constant reminder to the better off, That a similar fate could happen to them if things do not go right?

[Phier]

I'll tell you what the difference is. Welfare fraud is defined as overpayment or over claiming on available benefits. The Welfare department is instructed to chase up over payments of less than £100 even on tax credits. The department chasing up welfare fraud, and over payment and mistakes wastes about 5 times more than is lost in welfare fraud in the first place. But the department on tax fraud is instructed to ignore any single tax avoidance below £30,000 and is a far smaller team for what is a bigger problem. Our Defence Budget is £31 billion.

What IS under reporting taxes?
What IS welfare?

You are seeing the leaves without seeing the tree.

Tax fraud is keeping your own money from the government.
Welfare fraud is stealing other peoples money from the government.

But thats just the tip.

The question you should be asking is how much do we SPEND on welfare. As all of that money came from other people, being the government does not produce. It doesn't matter if it was fraud or 100% legal. It is still a wealth transfer.

[The Devil's Sergeant]

Did you come out of the 17th century? Seriously? What is this tripe?

I forgot the "not!"

[♔Jean-Luc Picard♔]

In the UK benefit fraud costs us £800 million a year yet various Tax frauds by the various rich costs us estimated between £25 billion and £37 billion. But we still concentrate on the former and blame the poor.

I had to say something about this.

Tax fraud is money not given. Withheld. The government didn't lose any money in this, they simply never got it.

Benefit fraud is actual theft. They lied and got what was not rightfully theirs. This is, to me, a higher crime than trying to keep money you made.

Yes, there is a huge difference. But the benefit fraud receives more attention because, as I said, they actually stole something. I'm not saying withholding taxes is okay, but I see theft from someone (the government in this case) as the greater of these two evils. The amounts involved are irrelevant to me, it is the action that matters to me.

And to get back on topic, I feel that the biggest reason I dismiss (not dislike or hate) the poor is that a vocal minority see it as my duty as a taxpayer to make their lives easier when it is their duty to do something about it themselves.

[Last Roman]

I don't hate poor people, I hate the consistantly poor choices they make that make them poor.

that list smacks so much of some gobbledy gook self-help rich ass hole writing, it makes me want to punch a baby.

[The Devil's Sergeant]

that list smacks so much of some gobbledy gook self-help rich ass hole writing, it makes me want to punch a baby.

That's what we rich people call "loser language."

No. Self-made wealthy people are and that's what you still don't get. Majority of wealthy were born that way.

An assertion that is untrue.

If you have a low income you can do nothing except trying to get the money to last until the next paycheck comes. What can a person that earns 500 euro a month do with his money to "build wealth"?

Wealthy people focus on opportunities. Poor people focus on obstacles.

If income is your problem then you need to find a way to boost your income obviously. That means a second job. That means you don't settle for the job you have now. You look for better and/or more employment. It may mean moving to another city or another country. People who have their eyes open to new opportunities are going to do better than those that don't. (I've moved 1200 miles and 700 miles in the last 11 years.)

[nemgod]

If income is your problem then you need to find a way to boost your income obviously. That means a second job. That means you do settle for the job you have now. You look for better and/or more employment. It may mean moving to another city or another country. People who have their eyes open to new opportunities are going to do better than those that don't. (I've moved 1200 miles and 700 miles in the last 11 years.)

And here in lies the problem you fail to realize. Most people do NOT live in a place where a 2nd job is a viable option. A number of places have employment so scarce that even getting a single job you are lucky. Getting one out of town may not be a viable option for these people as travel costs a lot (hell in Europe these costs are treble even quadruple what Americans have to pay.). Cars are not cheap and not everyplace has access to public transport and those that do are likely to experience something that would make relying on such things one of the most stupid options in the entire world.

Then you say move to another area. Again How? Moving costs money, hell it costs more money than most see in a lifetime. Most people can NOT afford such a option. Going into debt is not one of the best solutions into becoming wealthy one thing most people are doing is struggling to live with what they have. Sure getting the latest plasma tv or the most upto date PC is not going to help those but they are the minority. Not everyone is born in a position where it is possible to become wealthy at all.

[Phier]

And here in lies the problem you fail to realize. Most people do NOT live in a place where a 2nd job is a viable option. A number of places have employment so scarce that even getting a single job you are lucky. Getting one out of town may not be a viable option for these people as travel costs a lot (hell in Europe these costs are treble even quadruple what Americans have to pay.). Cars are not cheap and not everyplace has access to public transport and those that do are likely to experience something that would make relying on such things one of the most stupid options in the entire world.

Then you say move to another area. Again How? Moving costs money, hell it costs more money than most see in a lifetime. Most people can NOT afford such a option. Going into debt is not one of the best solutions into becoming wealthy one thing most people are doing is struggling to live with what they have. Sure getting the latest plasma tv or the most upto date PC is not going to help those but they are the minority. Not everyone is born in a position where it is possible to become wealthy at all.

This is more of that "loser" talk.

If you live in some 3rd world hell hole, or the like I could see it (and in that case you figure out how to immigrate), but if you are in a Western nation, especially America this is not a problem. Maybe its why so many Europeans live here

A second job would be quite easy over here, I know it gets into 'friend and beer' time, but places like restaurants are always looking for help.

[Rich86]

If income is your problem then you need to find a way to boost your income obviously.

Didn't realise it was so easy.....what if you have no way to boost your income? What if you have no qualifications at all?

That means a second job.

What if after your first job you need to go home and look after family?

That means you don't settle for the job you have now.

What if the job you have now is the only one you can get?

You look for better and/or more employment.

And if you can't find any? If none will take you?

It may mean moving to another city or another country

Which costs money......

I hate the social benefits people get in my country. It's like the stupid hicks who don't want to work get housing and generous payouts from the government. And all they do is just sit on their asses.

Really? All of them just sit on their assess all day? Can you give us some evidence for this? I don't doubt many do - but let's not tar everyone on benefits with the same brush...

And all the decent folk

Ah - so if you're on benefits you're not 'decent folk'?

those who actually are struggling to find work won't get anything because of government bureaucracy.

Well, it's not entirely government bureaucracy - the state of the economy comes into it - as well as the individual who is looking for work.

[The Devil's Sergeant]

Didn't realise it was so easy.....what if you have no way to boost your income? What if you have no qualifications at all?

What if after your first job you need to go home and look after family?

What if the job you have now is the only one you can get?

And if you can't find any? If none will take you?

Which costs money......

Wow, you are one big excuse machine! Which makes you entirely normal. Look its not easy to become wealthy, its a struggle against many things. You must struggle to overcome your past poor decisions, you struggle to overcome self doubt, you struggle to overcome others expectations of you.


I must remark that when I posted that list on the first page, I didn't think many people at all would have an issue with it. To me the list is obviously true and not the least bit controversial. Perhaps it is because I have lived in both worlds. I grew up fairly poor and knew a lot of people that hardly changed in 20 years, my dad for one. In his entire adult life earned exactly one promotion. Not surpisingly he never became wealthy.

Now I live in a completely different world. Now I associate that every day is a new opportunity, they don't get caught up in excuses and they don't settle. They acknowledge their mistakes and learn from them.

[Last Roman]

That's what we rich people call "loser language."

ah yes, there it is again.

That list takes no account of so many variables. Yes, is a hardworking person probably going to have it better off than some lazy er? yes, but I know plenty of hardworking people that are never going to be wealthy. Take my dad for example, a frickin PhD. He's not exactly poor, but money is something we always have to worry about.

Perhaps if you focused your baby punching instinct into something more productive you would become rich yourself.

I actually plan to exploit the baby punching market. It's small and there's plenty of room to expand. Punching babies and getting filthy rich, what's better?

[The Devil's Sergeant]

ah yes, there it is again.

That list takes no account of so many variables. Yes, is a hardworking person probably going to have it better off than some lazy er? yes, but I know plenty of hardworking people that are never going to be wealthy. Take my dad for example, a frickin PhD. He's not exactly poor, but money is something we always have to worry about.

And what does my list says about this?

Wealthy people have their money work hard for them. Poor people work hard for their money.

What that means is that relying on income by its self is not a path to wealth. You have to save an invest over a long period of time so that the money that you worked so hard to earn, generates an income. Take two people that with identical salaries, the first person spends all of his income on material, depreciatable assets. The second person forgoes some of that spending and instead saves and invests. For a time it will appear that the first person if wealthier sine they display a visibly higher life style. But in time the savings of the second person will generate an income in excess of their savings rate and the second person will be wealthy in net worth and in lifestyle. In short when you defer spending on material goods, you increase your ability to purchase material goods.

Its funny in that trying to disagree with me you recited one of my points back to me, almost word for word and wind up agreeing with me.

This is why I smile everytime I read about some wanna-be "rich" guy who loses his shirt, because he bought too big a house on too shaky of a financial footing.

Living well within one's mean is an absolute necessity, I agree. If you cannot do that then there is little hope.

Smart people focus on opportunities. Wealthy people have more opportunities, and they have the liquidity to follow through. Poor people have more distractions, so even when a good opportunity comes along there's a good chance they'll miss it.

Smart people do tend tyo get wealthies than foolish people, that's true! When you save and invest opportunities will begin to present themselves. It gives you all kinds of options, whether it is getting a better education, buying a rental property or investing in a business. Having savings give you options, and when you have options you have new opportunities.

That's classic capitalist: "Not enough cash? Earn more cash!!!" I partly agree, but your argument appears lonely and in need of good company.

Here's my take: "Not enough cash? Stop spending it in all the wrong ways!" Ditch cable TV, watch online or set up an HD aerial. Learn to do basic maintenance yourself. Drive a smaller car. Only heat/cool the rooms you actually use, while you're using (or, wear a sweater). Thousands of ways to save money, but our culture is more about spending it...

True true true. In answering that question I was assuming an already bare bones existance, since he quoted a very meagre income.

[chamaeleo]

That's what we rich people call "loser language."

This is why I smile everytime I read about some wanna-be "rich" guy who loses his shirt, because he bought too big a house on too shaky of a financial footing.

Wealthy people focus on opportunities. Poor people focus on obstacles.

Smart people focus on opportunities. Wealthy people have more opportunities, and they have the liquidity to follow through. Poor people have more distractions, so even when a good opportunity comes along there's a good chance they'll miss it.

If income is your problem then you need to find a way to boost your income obviously. That means a second job. That means you don't settle for the job you have now. You look for better and/or more employment. It may mean moving to another city or another country. People who have their eyes open to new opportunities are going to do better than those that don't. (I've moved 1200 miles and 700 miles in the last 11 years.)

That's classic capitalist: "Not enough cash? Earn more cash!!!" I partly agree, but your argument appears lonely and in need of good company.

Here's my take: "Not enough cash? Stop spending it in all the wrong ways!" Ditch cable TV, watch online or set up an HD aerial. Learn to do basic maintenance yourself. Drive a smaller car. Only heat/cool the rooms you actually use, while you're using (or, wear a sweater). Thousands of ways to save money, but our culture is more about spending it...