Your idea on how the Dutch should start.

[Thonubian]

Ok this comes from a discussion in another topic but I wanted to know how many people agree on this.

now we all know UP is a bit strange to play compared to for example GB or france... but seeing the historical facts I am a bit confused about how CA designed UP's gameplay.

I get the part where they are set up for overseas trade and colonies. BUT and this is a large BUT... where is the dutch naval power? there is none. they start with a rather decent trade fleet. but hardly no ships to defend it. altho flyuts where used as defensive trade ships the dutch had a way larger fleet they fended of pirates and other raiders with.

now seeing UP starts with 3 tradings ports and no dockyard I find this weird aswell... as I stated in my other post :

the trade port in europe is stationed near rotterdam (historically correct and still is the largest trading port in the world) but what happened to amsterdam? this was the capital of UP at the time(still is) and thus making it a vital trading port. why not add a dockyard here instead? cause its just plain weird.

the dutch are a strong force even at the start of the 1700 's... altho the golden age ended and it started going downward the dutch at the time still had a navy up to par with the british and in my opinion they should be able to atleast fend off the now finally active pirates... wich right now they are incapable off until later game if played right. since the dutch always were a big trading empire their big adversary has always been pirating either by european nations or by pirates... but they were always defending their trade routes now the game offers no possible solution to this early game. and this is especially the time the dutch were still powerfull...

also the dutch were a mostly neutral nation, and in ETW you practically get forced into war with the spanish and french to take flanders... now the french and spanish being allies is incorrect aswell ill explain :

(my source is wikipedia btw)
in 1700 karel II dies and leaves open the throne to Filips van Anjou under the condition the french and spanish throne wouldn't become one. now in 1701 as some of you might know Lodewijk XIV pushed for a single throne and this started the spanish succesionwars... then in may 1702 the then republic dutch joins the spanish against the french in the spanish succesionwars. (thus making spanish and dutch allies and the french enemies and not both french and spanish enemies while they are allies) during that time the british actually never had an alliance with the dutch since willem III died(thus breaking any ties the dutch had with the british throne) in 1708 they actually declined a peace treaty wich would favor the dutch republic a lot. (just a small part of early history to show that the start of UP is actually incorrect)

dunno if this makes any sense to you guys but I think the dutch should start with atleast a dockyard near for example amsterdam and have a navy on par with GB(not just trading ships).also I think the alliance between the french and spanish should break, if you'd join the succesion wars against the french is up to the player offcourse but atleast make the alliance break.(this would also add more diversity to other nations cause noone really ever bothered with the war against either 2 cause of the alliance between these 2 european super powers) I must agree the new units are a big + and make my campaign more fun BUT it doesn't help naval wise.

now I know most things in game aren't 100 historically correct far from it actually... BUT atleast put some thought into this...

again these are my 2 cents.
what i'd like to know is what do you think on this thought?

[macd21]

While a dockyard in the netherlands would be nice (and would make sense), I'm not sure the UP need one in the early game. If you want to dominate trade in the early game, you should spam Fluyts and send them to the Indies, use them to smash any nearby pirate fleets and then take the trade nodes. Having a shipyard would allow you to build frigates, but you're probably better off with fluyts anyway.

[Thonubian]

While a dockyard in the netherlands would be nice (and would make sense), I'm not sure the UP need one in the early game. If you want to dominate trade in the early game, you should spam Fluyts and send them to the Indies, use them to smash any nearby pirate fleets and then take the trade nodes. Having a shipyard would allow you to build frigates, but you're probably better off with fluyts anyway.

ever tried fighting a pirate galleon with a fluyt? fluyts never were ment to be war ships, they are ment to provide a more defensive trade fleet ensuring more trade for the dutch (duh the dutch were trade orrientated thus it would make sense they would develop these kind of ships)

[Didz]

I found pre-1.3 that the Dutch Fluyts were good enough to double as naval vessels until I acquired a proper naval port. That might be a bit more difficult post-1.3 because the Pirates in the trade theatres will not tolerate any other ships in the area, so you will need to eliminate them before starting to trade. Certainly, the fluyts are more than a match for anything any other navy can produce in the early game, they can even give the 5th Rates a run for their money, so its really only the Pirates that are the problem now.

As far as diplomacy is concerned, I found it best to avoid alliances as the AI simply expliots them to get you involved in more stupid wars. Instead I concentrated on keeping my neighbours sweet with gifts and trade and using them as a buffer zone around the UP homeland. I did eventually take Flanders but only once I had something to trade back to Spain elsewhere in return for peace. My main expansion was in India which I eventually controlled completely, initially by playing each of the three factions off one against the other and then once they had worn each other down simply walking in and taking over. I think I had most of South America too if I recall correctly, plus the Pirate Islands.

[macd21]

ever tried fighting a pirate galleon with a fluyt? fluyts never were ment to be war ships, they are ment to provide a more defensive trade fleet ensuring more trade for the dutch (duh the dutch were trade orrientated thus it would make sense they would develop these kind of ships)

Not much better with 6th rates, which is what you'd be using if you had a shipyard. Basically, if you want to take out the pirates in the early game, you spam fluyts, plural, and beat the pirates in any given trade theatre with weight of numbers. Same tactic with 6th rates, only you can't then recoup some of your losses by sitting the surviving 6th rates on trade nodes.

I think though that this is more an issue of the pirates being overpowered than the UP being too weak.

[Didz]

I think though that this is more an issue of the pirates being overpowered than the UP being too weak.

Thats true, Pirates would not be using galleon's as they are too slow to catch anything. Most pirates would be in sloops, schooners and luggers. Although I think Blackbeard for one managed to capture a 300 ton slaver called La Concorde to which he fitted extra guns and renamed 'Queen Annes Revenge' but he only sailed that for a year apparently as he ran it aground off the coast of North Carolina. It is beleived to have been fitted with 40 guns, so it would have been the approximate equivalent of a 5th Rate.

Other famous pirate ships were:

The Adventure Galley Captain Kidd weighing over 284 tons, equipped with 34 cannons, and 150 men. (6th Rate)

The William Ann Bonny was a sloop.

[Thonubian]

Thats true, Pirates would not be using galleon's as they are too slow to catch anything. Most pirates would be in sloops, schooners and luggers. Although I think Blackbeard for one managed to capture a 300 ton slaver called La Concorde to which he fitted extra guns and renamed 'Queen Annes Revenge' but he only sailed that for a year apparently as he ran it aground off the coast of North Carolina. It is beleived to have been fitted with 40 guns, so it would have been the approximate equivalent of a 5th Rate.

*offtopic* makes me wonder what kind of vessel the black pearl or the flying dutchmen would have been :O *offtopic*

as for your diplomacy aproach didz, its the way a player chooses to play, and this will be different per player, but pretty much every player still gets *forced* into fighting a war with the spanish/french combo wich is historically incorrect actually.

as for you taking over india, I actually found that india is a great source of wealth for ANY faction. I usually take india with all my factions, just because its a massive wealth source and easy to conquer.

[ke3pr]

It's indeed quite worrying that the most thriving seatrade nation at the time doesn't have a proper fleet to even defend the trade at the start of the game. i always have to spam fluyts in the beginning of the game to deal with those nasty pirates.

By the way, to make it easier for yourself against the Spanish-French Alliance, don't attack Flanders/Spain but go for India/America/German countries in Europe first.. If you have some money try to give a States gift to france so they will like you and hope that Spain attacks you, France will most likely not help them in their war and you can finish the spanish on your own

[Generaal Van Heutsz]

By the way, to make it easier for yourself against the Spanish-French Alliance, don't attack Flanders/Spain but go for India/America/German countries in Europe first.. If you have some money try to give a States gift to france so they will like you and hope that Spain attacks you, France will most likely not help them in their war and you can finish the spanish on your own

I really don't like the idea of having to go for the small german states playing as Holland, it just seem very unrealistic.

[Thonubian]

I really don't like the idea of having to go for the small german states playing as Holland, it just seem very unrealistic.

this would be more suitable if you want to take revenge for WWII but yeah I don't like the idea either, as the dutch the only region I really want in europe is flanders to increase my trading capacity. other then that I want to focus on colonies and trade like the dutch did.

altho I must admit, I played one campaign in wich I ignored all but europe and litterally spend 15 years preparing for war and after that steam rolling most of the german states, part of denmark and france completely.

[ke3pr]

This is my 4th campaign as UP (sorry i just love playing my own country for ones in a game ) So i always try some other angel, ofcourse normally you want to expend your overseas trade as UP but it seemed fun invade Europe from the start and actually it's a pretty good tactic as long as you don't piss off prussia + austria + france at once xD or you're in for trouble ^^

[macd21]

The Dutch start off with a strong trade position compared to most of the other powers. The ability to make Fluyts is very advantageous in the early game. Remember, the pirate's ability to hit trade nodes will hurt every other faction in the game as well. If you want to hold on to and build upon your trade strength, you have to fight for it.

[Didz]

Well you certainly do now, when I last played Dutch I was able to sneak Indiamen past the pirates and ninja the trade spots. Those days are over.

[Thonubian]

exactly, my trade fleets got ninjad by pirates the minute I ended the turn... the only fleet left is the one in india :o

[King Xiao]

Early on as the Dutch, don't even try starting a war with France or Spain as your campaign will be over, they will blockade your capitals port and you will go bankrupt.

[macd21]

The old 'spam Indiamen' tactic no longer works, as they'll be picked off by the pirates. Unfortunately, this has led to a new problem. Instead of sending one ship out at a time, spend a few turns building them, then send them out at once. You probably won't see any pirates - or any other AI trade fleets. While you were gathering your fleet, the other factions were sending out small groups of ships, which got hit by the pirates. While the pirates sunk the fleets, they took damage themselves, which they don't repair. Eventually they will be ground down to nothing. By the time you arrive, most will be at the bottom of the ocean, the rest will be floating wrecks that you should have no problem beating. The lack of competition from the AI will mean that you'll be able to grab as many trade nodes as you want.

[Tullaris]

Step 1. Destroy the pirates. Take their two islands.

Step 2. Endless profits.

[ke3pr]

Does conquering the two islands make the pirates totally disappear? the fleets too? :x
We're getting a bit off-topic but still, a little more love for a nation that starts fairly weak would be appreciated (and more historical? )

[macd21]

Does conquering the two islands make the pirates totally disappear? the fleets too? :x )

Yes, however they can reappear if a carribean territory rebels, or if the faction that controls the island loses all of its regions in its home theatre (for example, if Spain have no regions in Europe, Cuba and Hispaniola will turn pirate, assuming they are still controlled by Spain at the time).

[Chlodwig I.]

you can take out French Guinea and Flanders quite fast. to get additional tradeports and a shipyard.

you are in a great position to conquer india, and the caribbean Islands.