Wanting to live or being forced to live?

[finsternis]

During one of Ho'oponopono's (now called Wu'a'ihiwalu, not sure why) shenanigans he said this:

How can you kill someone, who doesn't want to hurt you, completely weak and defenseless and only wants to come to life?

Now, I responded with this:

Are you sure about that? I heard in the movie Juno that girl telling Juno "Your baby wants to live" or something similar.

Do they really want to live? Or are they forced to live? I once heard this quote:

"Wise men choose death over war. Wiser men choose not to be born"

Who is to say that non-existence is better than existence?

He never responded.

I said more, but it is not necessary.

What do you guys think? Is existence really more important than non-existence? Do we want to live or are we just forced to live? And then we are kept alive by our bodies' defense mechanism that makes suicide not wanted (unless you can overwrite it, which has been done).

[Chaigidel]

I sure like existing , thats pretty much the breadth of my evidence though.

[Barry Goldwater]

I don't know, but I know I sure as hell want to live

[Playfishpaste]

What do you guys think? Is existence really more important than non-existence? Do we want to live or are we just forced to live? And then we are kept alive by our bodies' defense mechanism that makes suicide not wanted (unless you can overwrite it, which has been done).

Existence and non-existence are not necessarily mutually exclusive, although by vocabulary they seem to be dichotomous.

At the same time, we are technically forced to do everything, as free will is simply what our genes and environmental stimuli have made us want to do.

[finsternis]

I sure like existing , thats pretty much the breadth of my evidence though.

I don't know, but I know I sure as hell want to live

@both:

Is life worth all the suffering in it?

Existence and non-existence are not necessarily mutually exclusive, although by vocabulary they seem to be dichotomous.

I guess that's possible. Who is to say that the universe exists? Yet we "exist" in it. Yet we can't prove it exists. So maybe exists and don't at the same time.

At the same time, we are technically forced to do everything, as free will is simply what our genes and environmental stimuli have made us want to do.

You can take that further and say that the future is pre-determined.

@Romanman

All there? Do you mean non-existence is not possible? Explain.

And I think Playfish meant that there is no free will, just what our genes tell us to do (I think he put the word free will as a satire).

[Playfishpaste]

I guess that's possible. Who is to say that the universe exists? Yet we "exist" in it. Yet we can't prove it exists. So maybe exists and don't at the same time.

Much like the dead cat in the box.

You can take that further and say that the future is pre-determined.

NOOO, I just unwittingly (and theoretically inevitably!) became a predestination determinist!

*shoots self*

But not exactly. As chaotic systems prevent the future from having any preset course, just as it would possibly prevent you from having any definite premade decisions you are destined to make by genes and the environment, given that the brain is chaotic.

This would mean we don't have free will, but we don't have any fate or destiny either. Rather I guess we live by nature's will.
Ah, but not exactly...

This is confusing.

[finsternis]

But not exactly. As chaotic systems prevent the future from having any preset course, just as it would possibly prevent you from having any definite premade decisions you are destined to make by genes and the environment, given that the brain is chaotic.

This would mean we don't have free will, but we don't have any fate or destiny either. Rather I guess we live by nature's will.
Ah, but not exactly...

Well I used to think that the future was not determined either, but until I read the Watchmen, I started to question.

But now I think that the future is predetermined because of one phrase I made up: what will happen, will happen. I know it is not deep but it makes senses.

Back to topic: the dead cat in the box is more of a "maybe that maybe this yet we have no idea" problem. I don;t think it captures the "exists AND not exists" idea.

[Playfishpaste]

Well I used to think that the future was not determined either, but until I read the Watchmen, I started to question.

But now I think that the future is predetermined because of one phrase I made up: what will happen, will happen. I know it is not deep but it makes senses.

Back to topic: the dead cat in the box is more of a "maybe that maybe this yet we have no idea" problem. I don;t think it captures the "exists AND not exists" idea.

Ah but it does. It shows probability doesn't work in the way we thought it used to. We used to think of possibilities as simply concepts. This is not the case, they are in fact, physical things.

There are matter waves for the dead cat and the live cat in the box. There are two cats in there, physically, breathing, living, real cats. Once you pop in and check, one of them disappears.

[Arch-hereticK]

I love existing, it's basically all that I do.

I guess free will does come in a little (I could just kill myself). But the act of birth is done without consent, our wishes are non-existant at that point. The ability of free will (I believe) doesn't develop until later in life. Then we may start wanting to live.

But then are we being forced to live? I don't think so, free will pwns all.

[Romanman]

to me existence is all there is so yes it is better, however the sounder arguement tends to be that the fetus is not really human being....it may have human dna but is it dna that makes us human or something more

"as free will is simply what our genes and environmental stimuli have made us want to do" - then its not really free will is it. but lets not get into that

[Chaigidel]

if one can learn to enjoy suffering as an artform, and appreciate the nuances in sorrow then yes I would say life is a grand thing and worth going for( and thank god you are incapable of remembering how many times you have had to awaken, love, and die over and over and over and over and over--- it would be hell in every sense of the word.

but sense our life is blessedly short, I rather think the suffering is quite worth it, for I would pay any price to find those I have with me again, and I will awaken in the darkness and seek them, and in not finding I will scream until I realize I have no voice.

I think once we all crouched down and gathered along a great fire, and we bent low to see what a place this was, that It had made, of all these worlds that passed before, we never saw one so pure or intricate, so beautifully woven with love and loss, a tapestry of life and death, a song that could not be worded , even as it hummed behind our eyes, so in love with this sweet world in that first day, when we promised our eternity for the smallest moment in this, what a world is this that has been enamored of these delicate flakes of most solemn fathers finest twine.

[IrishHitman]

"Wise men choose death over war. Wiser men choose not to be born"

And the most wide fight to send others to their deaths

[Pious Agnost]

And the most wide fight to send others to their deaths

The wiser still send others to fight to their deaths

[Wu'a'ihiwalu]

During one of Ho'oponopono's (now called Wu'a'ihiwalu, not sure why) shenanigans he said this:



Now, I responded with this:



He never responded.

I said more, but it is not necessary.

What do you guys think? Is existence really more important than non-existence? Do we want to live or are we just forced to live? And then we are kept alive by our bodies' defense mechanism that makes suicide not wanted (unless you can overwrite it, which has been done).

You cannot not exist. It is simply absurd to imagine that a fetus doesn't exist.

[finsternis]

@Arch-heretick:

But are you not saying that because you already exist? And thus your biology stops you from killing yourself? Committing suicide is actually harder than it sounds. You can have thoughts of taking a knife and stabbing your neck, but actually bring yourself to it is hard. It would take a lot of sadness and suffering to overwrite the commands you body gives.

@Chaigidel:

Well now you are talking about resurrection, which means we never not exist (since we are always something). But doesn't that bring problems with scarcity of souls since if every soul just gets recycle, then there can only be so many souls, and thus so many humans). But that's not right since there are more humans now than before. Where did all the souls come from? Are new ones being made?

@Playfish:

Never though of the cat-box problem like that. But isn't that physically impossible since where does the mass of the cat that disappear go? It can's just vanish (unless you are talking about meta-physics and not physical physics).

@Wu'a'ihiwalu:

Is the fetus the person? Or just a fetus? I thought that when people fought against abortion that did not fought for the fetus itself but for the "soul" (mind, whatever you want to call it) of the fetus. I know the fetus exist, but does it want to be born? Or is it forced to be born?

Who cares about the fetus? It is just a fetus. Who care about a human body? It is just a body. The important thing is its soul/mind.

[Arch-hereticK]

I'm saying will/desire conquers those constraints.

Given enough will/desire of course.

[Playfishpaste]

@Playfish:

Never though of the cat-box problem like that. But isn't that physically impossible since where does the mass of the cat that disappear go? It can's just vanish (unless you are talking about meta-physics and not physical physics).

matter has a dual nature just like light does, it has both a particle and wave form. In it's wave form, the particles of the dead cat and the live cat are virtual (as well as every other possible situation for the cat to be in the box, sitting cat, chewing cat, cute cat, ugly cat, sleeping cat etc). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particles

Once you open the box, the wave-function of the matter particles collapse on one orientation of the cat, usually the most likely one (let's say, live cat licking it's face) and thus we only see one cat.

The virtual particles are massless and there can thusly be an infinite amount of them, for every possible situation the cat is in. It sounds complicated at first, but khalili's "an introduction to quantum mechanics" explains it very simply.

And arch, that will and desire would only be generated if the genes and environmental stimuli you had as a child made it so that they would be.

[Arch-hereticK]

"And arch, that will and desire would only be generated if the genes and environmental stimuli you had as a child made it so that they would be."

I disagree, suicide is always a possibility no matter enviroment as a child.
You only want to live until you don't, I'm saying the option of suicide is always there.

I'm not wholey convinced that the will required is that great.

[Playfishpaste]

"And arch, that will and desire would only be generated if the genes and environmental stimuli you had as a child made it so that they would be."

I disagree, suicide is always a possibility no matter enviroment as a child.
You only want to live until you don't, I'm saying the option of suicide is always there.

I'm not wholey convinced that the will required is that great.

That's not what I mean.

I'm saying it's not really your choice when you commit suicide. You decided to do it because of your genes and what happened to your brain as you grew. You don't have any control over the choice you made. If you want to kill yourself, it wasn't your decision, it was nature's.

[Arch-hereticK]

That's not what I mean.

I'm saying it's not really your choice when you commit suicide. You decided to do it because of your genes and what happened to your brain as you grew. You don't have any control over the choice you made. If you want to kill yourself, it wasn't your decision, it was nature's.

Genes and experience (and nature I suppose) do affect it but that's not all. You can't possibly be arguing that the only people who commit suicide are people with a "suicide" gene. Control is in the hands of the guy with the gun. Lets not forget the possibility of assisted suicide, if the desire to end your life is strong enough you can of course override genes and enviroment.