Ethics of using Premium Models

**erasmus777** · June 22, 2009, 11:39 AM

THIS IS NOT A DISCUSSION OF HOW TO UNLOCK DLC/PREMIUM CONTENT

I'm not interested in discussing of how to unlock DLC. I want to raise the question of whether or not it is legal and ethical to use the models, as opposed to the entire product, in a modification.

My initial reaction is that there is no ethical conflict with using the models. I paid for my hard drive and the software that is on it. Asking me not to use those is like telling me that I bought a piece of property, but I didn't pay for the small storage shed that's built on it, so I can't use the shed. It's silly.

The legality is another issue, and I'm not aware of what the issues are there. Does anyone know the answer?

**Tobler75** · June 22, 2009, 11:53 AM

Yes, I also hope that CA will response to that question soon, as long they don't want to provide modding tools in spirit of raising money out of dlc's i am afraid the answer will be no. But if I pay 2,50 Bucks i want to do with those units anything I want!

**erasmus777** · June 22, 2009, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Tobler75

Yes, I also hope that CA will response to that question soon, as long they don't want to provide modding tools in spirit of raising money out of dlc's i am afraid the answer will be no. But if I pay 2,50 Bucks i want to do with those units anything I want!

They're also already on your computer. In fact, everyone who owns a legal copy of ETW has them on their computer already, even without paying 2,50. Given the fact that we all already have the files in question, is there anything illegal about using them?

**Johan217** · June 22, 2009, 01:18 PM

Sooner or later there are going to be mix ups. I mean, are we supposed to keep track of which models are meant to remain hidden and which aren't? I can imagine a well-intentioned modder who finds those meshes in the pack file and thinks, cool, I'll use this one for my new unit.

If he does remember to check whether the mesh is from the DLC package, he may add a note "please buy the DLC pack before you use this mod" to his installation instructions, but that won't stop the mod from working on any ETW install.

If they do not want modders to recycle those models, then why include them in the base pack file? It's not like you need to crack any files or anything to enable them.

**Bladerunner** · June 22, 2009, 01:33 PM

It seems unlocking will be simular to SF-Units, so i think we will see threats about it very soon. And as soon as those threads come up, we will see CA try to close them.
So let's just see, how CA reacts on the first published modded unit, using a premium Model. Whether it is legal or not, this is what you have to handle with, when publishing. The reaction of CA and the Forums, you put them into. It don't help you to know it is legal or not, as long as nowbody allows you to publish a mod using this Models, to not get in trouble with CA. even if you find a way to publish it, if CA tells you directly to take it down or you have to face legal consequances. We do this as a hobby and who of use would risk to go to court, just to be allowed to use those models for a mod, even when it's legal in the end?

**Officerpuppy** · June 22, 2009, 01:28 PM

I was thinking about this just a moment ago. I'm working on some Russian Naval Infantry using the new Russian grenadier model and it occured to me, I have plans for one of the new US models, but it's part of the DLC.....so how do I sort this out.

It wouldn't be fair to those who paid for the new units and then for a modder to release a modded version of one of these units which would let everyone use it. It's like taking the Victory or Constitution, painting the texture pink and calling it the Pink Express and releasing it.

**erasmus777** · June 22, 2009, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by Officerpuppy

I was thinking about this just a moment ago. I'm working on some Russian Naval Infantry using the new Russian grenadier model and it occured to me, I have plans for one of the new US models, but it's part of the DLC.....so how do I sort this out.

It wouldn't be fair to those who paid for the new units and then for a modder to release a modded version of one of these units which would let everyone use it. It's like taking the Victory or Constitution, painting the texture pink and calling it the Pink Express and releasing it.

But they're paying for a complete product along with support for that product. Everyone who owns a legal copy of the game, has the files on their computer. I'm not talking about making CA's complete product available--I agree that would be wrong. I mean using a small part and making something new out of it. Furthermore, people pay for things they can get for free (and legally) all the time because they get value added services with it.

**Maniacal** · June 22, 2009, 01:33 PM

It wouldn't be fair for a modder trying to create their own (and with their own (not CA's) skins) mod that is a major re-working of the game, similar to Stainless Steel or Europa Barbarorum or Realism Total War for example, to not be able to include units when trying to build a historicaly accurate unit roster. I'd like to know if modders can create a unit that CA also offers in DLC. Or if that would not be okay with CA. But then, if it wasn't okay and a mod has a bunch of units and then CA releases more DLC afterwards, does that mean they have to take the units out of the mod or what?

**Modestus** · June 22, 2009, 01:45 PM

Well thanks to this thread I found them and I will do what I want with them up to a point.

As far as I can tell moving this here and that there and adding this I can have them in my game they are a resource that I can utilise if I want to and even though I did not pay for them they are there.

However going as far as uploading them unchanged in a mod I certainly would not do that because that would feel like stealing someone else's work.

I dont think CA will be too worried if people start at some stage uploading mods with them modded because there is nothing they can do about it.

**erasmus777** · June 22, 2009, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Modestus

However going as far as uploading them unchanged in a mod I certainly would not do that because that would feel like stealing someone else's work.

Just want to be clear that this isn't what I'm proposing.

**Modestus** · June 22, 2009, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by erasmus777

Just want to be clear that this isn't what I'm proposing.

Yes I understand perfectly that is what you want to avoid.

You want to discuss what you perceive as an ethical problem when it comes to using the premium units as the basis for a mod. I see no dilemma other than the dilemma that is endemic with all mods,you are always building on someone else's work at their discretion.

I am not going to worry about it anyhow unless I get an E-mail or one of the new models has a nice turn back.

**erasmus777** · June 22, 2009, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Maniacal

I'd like to know if modders can create a unit that CA also offers in DLC.

Yes, especially if the units in question are historical entities. As long as it's your own work. If you wanted to make a unit called "The Gurkha Rifles," there's nothing CA could do because it's a historical reference, assuming you're not using one of their DLC textures.

**Bladerunner** · June 22, 2009, 02:02 PM

That leads to another problem: If you use the model, what about the texture? Would you make them new from scratch or how much use of a DLC-Texture is ok?

**Johan217** · June 22, 2009, 01:45 PM

Case in point: the TROM mod already has Walloon Guards, it was one of the first units we added. It uses one of the default models. Other mods also include marines, horse grenadiers etc, also using default ETW (but hidden) models. Surely they can't claim the modders have been copying anything illegally?

**Officerpuppy** · June 22, 2009, 02:02 PM

I think to sumerize the topic, can modders use DLC textures/models with modifications in their own work and release it to the public.

**HellFell** · June 22, 2009, 02:07 PM

Since these models are on my hard drive and they take about 100 mb of disc space, I can use them in any way I want.

**Johan217** · June 22, 2009, 02:55 PM

What about this then: most major mods will need to ensure compatibility with the DLC units, even if it is just adjusting their stats to make them work correctly. But in doing so they make these units available to people who have not bought DLC.

**Johan217** · June 22, 2009, 03:31 PM

OK, this settles the dilemma. I just tested it by assigning one of the new models to another unit. Game crashes at start up. So you DO need DLC for the new models to show up it seems. At least they got that part right

**Officerpuppy** · June 22, 2009, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by Johan217

OK, this settles the dilemma. I just tested it by assigning one of the new models to another unit. Game crashes at start up. So you DO need DLC for the new models to show up it seems. At least they got that part right

If thats the case then it seems like a solution. Then modders would have to release two versions of their mods if they use some DLC units. One version would be without the DLC units for those who don't have them, and another would be the DLC version for those who do have the DLC units.