Faction Decision & Technology System

[Augustus Lucifer]

One of the things I'm excited to get to work on is a new system I've devised to bring the concept of technology to Total War. Yes, Empire sort of has it, but their tech system is kind of lame and one-dimensional. Everyone has the same techs for pete's sake!

It took me a while to visualize all of this, I've been tossing the idea around in my head for a while now and only recently came to what I'd need to make it work. After discussing it some with GED I've concluded I should be able to do everything I want with it.

How this will work is using a somewhat obscure button/scroll that the player won't be inclined to press for any other reason, it will fire a scroll that explains the technology system and ask the player if they'd like to explore the technologies they can research. It will use a complex series of accept/decline scrolls and counters coming out the arse to let the player skip things he doesn't want now but can still come back to them later. Potentially it will also include a function using the escape key, which lets them abort whenever they like so they don't have to go through all their available technology options or decisions.

Now each decision will have certain prerequisites. You won't be able to perform certain research before certain years, without certain other research, without a building constructed somewhere, potentially it could even be based on an ancillary existing in the faction. When a new decision becomes available the player will be informed by event so they can check their decisions again.

Now we move on to what the decisions and techs themselves do. They act as both a limiter and an improver. Say you want to develop irrigation for your fields, well you don't automatically know how to irrigate fields just because your city got bigger. You could have a city full of dumbasses and know-nothings, all they'd know how to do is piss in the fields. But you hire a tech team to develop methods to effectively irrigate the fields, and the end result is you can now build higher level farming buildings.

But tech teams aren't always going to come up with the right answer, and it costs money to finance their research since they aren't doing productive work and need to feed their families. So there's a % chance the team will fail depending on conditions in your faction. A tech team is less likely to be productive in a military regime where people are eating rations and generals are cracking the whip. If you have academies it's likely they'll be more successful. At the same time, you might be able to think more outside the box when you're developing technology for war, so some tech may only be available in a wartime atmosphere. And all of this costs money, so each time you finance a tech team it takes money and potentially other resources to do so.

They don't always have to produce "technology" either, you could decide to spend money re-educating the populace to be tolerant... or intolerant. And the result is new capabilities on existing buildings opening up that add conversion bonus or happiness. The realm of possibility is really vast, I'll have more to show once I get all of the framework together.

For now I'd like to hear ideas people have of technologies and other ways to use this system.

[RobinCato]

If this works, it will rise the whole gameplay of AUH to a new level.

Ideas:

Armour and weapon upgrades could be included into the tech tree, of course. But I also think about something different: Scouts.
Once you have this technology, it increases the rate of view for captains, generals and other strat map agents.

Economic bonuses:

-Geologist academy +x for mines
-Architect academy (high level necessary for the Chinese wall? and lower build time)
-magistrate guards (+x taxes, less corruption)

I have many ideas, how many of them are good, depends on which technologies you can imagine.

[Wundai]

Wow this really sounds great and complicated(in a good way!)

I was wondering Chris, your system, do you intend to implement this as full fledged feature within the game or as an add-on?
Also a very good thing to have an escape button for the people who care more about fighting battles then Economy or clicking alot of menu's

Ok something from the top of my head:

-I was thinking of climates/weather and different seasons that can also influence this system, afraid I don't have an example now from the top of my head for it.

Another possibility is to have special research/technology that occurs during or after Natural Disasters.

One example: A vulcano errupts, killing alot of residents etc. you know the message from the vanilla game I think.
But after the erruption the soil is usually more vertile, hence this can be used to increase farming space/harvest and so can create a special option for the player of researching this after the event.

Something like this could also be done with other Natural disasters like the Earthquakes and Tai-Phuns for example.

[Augustus Lucifer]

Here's a little code snippet of one decision with no real parameters.

;---------------------------------------
;-- Sub-Section 1E - Decisions System --
;---------------------------------------

;**********Script 1E-1 - Decision Selection**********
;
;|Author| Augustus Lucifer
;|Purpose| Set up the system of player selecting which decisions to pursue.
;|Changelog|
; o Script Created 6-22-09 ~ Augustus Lucifer

;Start the decisions system
monitor_event ScrollAdviceRequested ScrollAdviceRequested missions_scroll
		and I_CompareCounter dec_system_activated == 1
	historic_event choose_decisions true
end_monitor

;Fire Decision 1 (D01)
monitor_event EventCounter EventCounterType choose_decisions_accepted
		and I_EventCounter choose_decisions_accepted == 1
	wait 1 ; Give time for other event to clear the screen
	historic_event decision_d01 true
	set_event_counter choose_decisions_accepted 0
end_monitor

;Abort Decisions System
monitor_event EventCounter EventCounterType choose_decisions_decline
		and I_EventCounter choose_decisions_declined == 1
	set_event_counter choose_decisions_declined 0
end_monitor

;Start the process of Decision 1 (D01)
monitor_event EventCounter EventCounterType decision_d01_accepted
		and I_EventCounter decision_d01_accepted == 1
	set_event_counter decision_d01_accepted 0
	set_counter d01_process 1
end_monitor

;Move on to next decision
monitor_event EventCounter EventCounterType decision_d01_declined
		and I_EventCounter decision_d01_declined == 1
	set_event_counter decision_d01_declined 1
	;Next decision event goes here
end_monitor

;**********Script 1E-2 - Decision Process**********
;
;|Author| Augustus Lucifer
;|Purpose| Initialize the selected decisions with probabilities of success, cost, and timer.
;|Changelog|
; o Script Created 6-22-09 ~ Augustus Lucifer

declare_counter d01_process
declare_counter d01_timer
declare_counter d01_complete

;Decision 1 Process - Part 1 (Timer & Cost)
monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionIsLocal
		and I_CompareCounter d01_process == 1
	inc_counter d01_timer 1
	add_money song -500
end_monitor

;Decision 1 Process - Part 2 (Probabilities)
monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionIsLocal
		and I_CompareCounter d01_process == 1
		and I_CompareCounter d01_timer == 3 ;3 turns
	generate_random_counter d01_probability 1 10
	if I_EventCounter d01_probability <= 5
		set_counter d01_complete 1
	end_if
	if I_EventCounter d01_probability > 5
		set_counter d01_complete 2
	end_if
	set_counter d01_timer 0
	set_counter d01_process 0
end_monitor

;**********Script 1E-3 - Decision Outcome**********
;
;|Author| Augustus Lucifer
;|Purpose| Implement the effects of a successful decision.
;|Changelog|
; o Script Created 6-22-09 ~ Augustus Lucifer

;Decision 1 Outcome - Success
monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionIsLocal
		and I_CompareCounter d01_complete == 2
	add_money song 40000
	historic_event d01_success false
end_monitor

;Decision 1 Outcome - Failure
monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionIsLocal
		and I_CompareCounter d01_complete == 1
	historic_event d01_failure false
	set_counter d01_complete 0
end_monitor

Some things that need to be done still:

- steal_esc_key and experiment with aborting the progression using it. One EscPressed monitor should do to impress an lclick up/down on decline after setting a counter to stop all events from firing, setting all declined counters to 0, and using a wait command.

- Skipping of completed decisions and decisions that aren't qualified for. This is going to be tricky for multiple decisions, might have to include if statements for every scenario in every previous scenario, hopefully a better workaround though.

[Wundai]

I see events in there, and decisions etc., what did you think about the natural disasters thing Augustus?

[Augustus Lucifer]

I see events in there, and decisions etc., what did you think about the natural disasters thing Augustus?

Sorry missed this, you can base things on natural disasters I'm fairly certain, on a city or global level. So it's possible, just give me an outline for what you think it should do and how it should alert the player(footnote to the disaster event?). Building creation is a very precarious thing, it's much better to enable the creation of buildings that were previously hidden than to actually create them, as doing so requires one monitor for every city, which as you can imagine would get unruly if used a multiplicity of times.

[Augustus Lucifer]

Note to self:

Base the progression through the decisions on throwing an event counter whenever decline is pressed, separate from the specific declined event counter, which in turn has an EventCounter EventCounterType monitor check and runs through a series of if statements checking what the previous decision was and whether the prerequisites for a decision are met in order to fire off the next one. Must further set another counter within each of those individual event firing if statements to stop any subsequent ones from firing during that monitor check, then set it back at the end of the monitor after the last if statement.

[Yelü Dashi]

Must have missed the first time round, in the rush to get the preview out. As Sander has stated, I think this would bring significant value to the mod.

Off the cuff, innovations in irrigration i.e improvement of rice yields/researching different strains would be important for factions like the Song and Khmers (Khmers especially relied on their argicultural tech).

Things like printing (movable type) and gunpowder tech might be researchable by all East Asian cultures.

Would factions who lack expertise in a certain area still be able to research them ? I am thinking for example of the Mongols mastering metallurgy, rather than relying on trade or their mobile smiths for their iron products ? Also, would technology considered 'outside' of our timeframe be accessible - for example "Ming-era" cannons or handguns, if a faction put their resources into researching it. I'm not saying the Tanguts will be able to achieve nuclear fission, but their might be future technologies that could be 'discovered' sooner.

One more thing, I like the idea that this could apply to cultural innovations or even the notion of 'science' itself being taught and ingrained into a society.

The irony with all this is that it appears we have working scripts, but they will live or die by decent ideas and research.

[Augustus Lucifer]

Must have missed the first time round, in the rush to get the preview out. As Sander has stated, I think this would bring significant value to the mod.

Off the cuff, innovations in irrigration i.e improvement of rice yields/researching different strains would be important for factions like the Song and Khmers (Khmers especially relied on their argicultural tech).

Things like printing (movable type) and gunpowder tech might be researchable by all East Asian cultures.

Would factions who lack expertise in a certain area still be able to research them ? I am thinking for example of the Mongols mastering metallurgy, rather than relying on trade or their mobile smiths for their iron products ? Also, would technology considered 'outside' of our timeframe be accessible - for example "Ming-era" cannons or handguns, if a faction put their resources into researching it. I'm not saying the Tanguts will be able to achieve nuclear fission, but their might be future technologies that could be 'discovered' sooner.

The way that I've designed it thus far has been to force one part of the system to send a limited amount of data to another, where more customization of that specific part is possible. So in essence, yes we could allow anyone to research any technology, or we could bar some factions from having certain technologies, and we can also give certain technologies to certain factions from the get-go. All a 'technology' is, in scripting terms, is the fact that "event_counter has_x_technology = 1", and we can manipulate that statement a gazillion ways since it's all abstract as far as the game is concerned.

In terms of Ming-era technologies, we could include that sort of thing in the mod, though we'd want to make it difficult to get there. You'd have to specialize in that specific technological 'chain', and it would be harder if you weren't past certain dates, for instance. The interface also won't be ideal, since we only have popup scrolls to work with, but it should be manageable.

The difficulties aren't in the technological progression, so much as what appreciable effects each technology gives that both makes it worth the cost of research and chance of failure, and still not overpowering. Subsequent buildings in a chain are one good thing, armor levels or units are another. Bonuses which are effected onto all buildings aren't as much as they have to be balanced extensively with other things.

One more thing, I like the idea that this could apply to cultural innovations or even the notion of 'science' itself being taught and ingrained into a society.

The irony with all this is that it appears we have working scripts, but they will live or die by decent ideas and research.

That is the irony in all things I'd say.

Wow, and here I thought I was signing on for a TW mod, but you're looking to make a Civ game. But on a serious note, I've never seen TW as "creation" games in the way that Civ, and AOE etc. are. The player's role is really more of a manager. I mean that you aren't supposed to be tweaking everything that goes on in your country, or even what goes on with your own leaders/generals. Stuff happens as it happens, and you have to adapt to it by using available resources. So for the case of technology, I think that teching should happen as a persistant phenominon. You should get better farms eventually no matter what. You shouldn't have to be tweaking that. At certain points, maybe you could get opportunities to invest more money in some particular area like firearms, or explosives or whatever, and have that move forward at a faster rate. But that extra dimension of a tech menu and tech orders and tech chances, all that just has no business in TW, I think. Not to mention it's another load of work on top of everything that already needs doing. I'd be for forgetting tech altogether until after the first or second public release.

It's not actually all that much work, in the scope of things. Plenty of my other scripts will be much more time intensive than this one is bound to be. Like with all the other innovations it's intended to be a background entity, managing tech is not something you have to do every turn, as you say each tech would potentially have a 'median date' where even if you didn't research it you get it. A player should be able to completely ignore tech and do just fine, it's just another way to customize play experience.

[Marcion]

Wow, and here I thought I was signing on for a TW mod, but you're looking to make a Civ game. But on a serious note, I've never seen TW as "creation" games in the way that Civ, and AOE etc. are. The player's role is really more of a manager. I mean that you aren't supposed to be tweaking everything that goes on in your country, or even what goes on with your own leaders/generals. Stuff happens as it happens, and you have to adapt to it by using available resources. So for the case of technology, I think that teching should happen as a persistant phenominon. You should get better farms eventually no matter what. You shouldn't have to be tweaking that. At certain points, maybe you could get opportunities to invest more money in some particular area like firearms, or explosives or whatever, and have that move forward at a faster rate. But that extra dimension of a tech menu and tech orders and tech chances, all that just has no business in TW, I think. Not to mention it's another load of work on top of everything that already needs doing. I'd be for forgetting tech altogether until after the first or second public release.

[sud commander]

This morning, during a boring maths lesson, I had an idea. We can add to AUH factions the ability to steal military technology to another factions after winning a certain number of battles? For example:

The Minamoto Clan win 2 battles against Song Dynasty, and the Song's has used in this battles their flametrower, then Minamoto Clan can recruit the flametrower in its cities.

Can it works in AUH?

[Marcion]

This morning, during a boring maths lesson, I had an idea. We can add to AUH factions the ability to steal military technology to another factions after winning a certain number of battles? For example:

The Minamoto Clan win 2 battles against Song Dynasty, and the Song's has used in this battles their flametrower, then Minamoto Clan can recruit the flametrower in its cities.

Can it works in AUH?

I guess that would depend on how much of the tech is actually going to relate directly to units and combat. We've been talking about farming, government, printing, infrastructure, etc. so far. Do we want tech that gives access to certain units, and if so, could they be shared between factions?

[Yelü Dashi]

The Minamoto Clan win 2 battles against Song Dynasty, and the Song's has used in this battles their flametrower, then Minamoto Clan can recruit the flametrower in its cities.

Can it works in AUH?

In principle this is a nice idea, but in reality gaining such advances in military tech so easily are unrealistic. After two battles with an enemy you're unlikely to capture enough experienced enigineers to master producing greek fire or creating the mechanism of the flamethrower itself. let alone representing the amount of time it would take a faction in instigate a production line/specialist building.

What is more realistic would if the Minamoto invaded mainland China (lol) and captured some cities, there they would find the expertise to produce their own siege weapons using Song technology.

[S-te-Fan]

I don't think an imperial guard should be attainable by another faction. Some siege engines and mercenaries should?

[sud commander]

Of course steal technology doesn't mean capture a soldier from Imperial Guard and then make it available for recruitament. But if a faction capture a siege engines or a special weapon it should be able to replicate it and use itin future.

[sud commander]

it was an example
We can do this in many ways. For example:
You use Minamoto Clan (yeah! I like it ) and I want do invade the mainland and destroy the Song Dynasty. After a winning battle appear a message "Yeah! we win the battle! We find the enemy enigineers and they beg us to keep them alive and for this they will share with us their knowledge about siege engines! Wait for 10 turns and then we will able to recruit the Song's siege engines!"

[Wundai]

Maybe you can combine this idea, with the number of prisoners captured in a battle.

For example after a battle you have captured 'that' and 'that' many prisoners, and you have the usual choices to let them go, ask for money or execute them.

How about a fourth choice : extort them for information about the enemy's technologies, battle plans or whatever, maybe you can even combine this with traits/ancillaries gained by a general after a battle(that was beside my point though)
After that it is a choice matter, just like the ask money option is a choice (the enemy pays or it doesn't) and sometimes the extortion works, and sometimes it doesn't.

[Yelü Dashi]

that would be awesome, but I'm not sure its possiible at all. Chris can confirm that probably.

Ideally, you'd also have a fifth option 'enlist them' to incorporate enemy troops into your army.

[Marcion]

Hrm, enlistment seems like it could be a very easy way to steamroll. I kinda like the idea of having an event after conquering a faction where you might pick up some of their tech.

[RollingWave]

Some techs that I think off the top of my head that are potentially exchanageable

A. seige craft (this is most obvious, Mongols went from knowing nothing about seige machine to building the best in the area)

B. gunpowder

C. agriculture

D. certain aspects of engineering

E. special (like printing, paper making .. maybe)