How would WW2 end if there would be no eastern front and USSR would never enter the war?

[Heathen Hammer]

So lets imagine that Hitler decided not to attack USSR. Operation Barbarossa never happens, USSR goes into isloationism and Hitler concentrates on defeating Great Britain and the rest of allies. How would the war later turn out? Who would win?
Discuss.

[Norge]

Probably with a negotiated peace as neither side would be able to advance.

[conon394]

A lot of vaporized Germans around 45/46.

Overall difficult to imagine since the USSR did not enter the war but was attacked, Stalin was bending over backward to make the M-R Non Aggression pact work.

[Hippolord]

A lot of vaporized Germans around 45/46.

Welcome ot the Wasteland Population:0

[Poach]

I agree on the notion that the side that got the atomic bomb first would certainly have the upper hand, but to assume it would be the Western Allies?

The German atomic bomb program was sobotaged fatally with the Heavy Water plant and I seem to recall reading that stolen German research used by the Allies to advance their own programs.

In light of the many millions of spare German soldiers there would be with no eastern front, the Allies may not have been able to sabotage the German project and it may well have been the Luftwaffe testing the world's first atomic weapon over London.

[Randarkmaan]

It would have been different. But Germany would not have won.

I think the actual impact that the Heavy Water plant might have had for a German A-bomb has been exaggerated, some of it because Norwegians really love those "Heavy water-operation" stories. As far as I know after the sabotage the machinery and facilities were moved to Germany. Also if it was so essential the Germans would probably have guarded the containers better when they were transported over water.

Also fact of the matter is that the Germans lacked the required technical expertise and knowledge on the subject. I don't think they could have done it before the US.

Honestly I don't see how Germany could pull of winning a great victory, the most they could have achieved would be a peace settlement with the UK. Anyway war with the Soviet Union was so essential to German strategy, politics and Nazi idelogy that it may indeed have been inevitable.

Also Germany managed to knock Russia out in WWI, yet still lost, and I think that Germany's potential might have been bigger back then (what with the powerful navy and colonies in Africa and China to operate from). The Germans would have been either A-bombed, regular bombed, starved or all three at the same time.

[Tiberius Tosi]

Again?

Firebombing of every major Nazi occupied city until we get the A bomb, at which time we vaporize Berlin and the war then ends because people around Hitler finally kill him and surrender. Allies still win unconditionally.

Most of the actual fighting would have taken place in North Africa. If D-Day did occur it would have had the same result in my opinion, the German defense was just to uncoordinated to be effective, that is why the Allies landed so successfully.

[antaeus]

Again?

Firebombing of every major Nazi occupied city until we get the A bomb, at which time we vaporize Berlin and the war then ends because people around Hitler finally kill him and surrender. Allies still win unconditionally.

Most of the actual fighting would have taken place in North Africa. If D-Day did occur it would have had the same result in my opinion, the German defense was just to uncoordinated to be effective, that is why the Allies landed so successfully.

again.

you forget, that the nazis would obviously have assembled an uber force of supersonic bombers and bombed new york thus bringing the united states to their knees, of course then they would have started the holocaust in the united states too.. great britain would have been conquered by the evil stalin - hitler alliance... the world would have been split between nazis and comunists and we'd all be talking either german or russian, and most tragically, billy ocean would have been white.

of course, this would have meant that the roswell incident would have happened in german occupied america, and the nazis - being the heightened scientific minds they were would have used alien technology to make weapons to destroy stalin's russia, then it would be a totally nazi world. all other ethnic groups would have been destroyed in gas chambers and only blonde blue eyed germans would survive. it would be a paradise where the todt corporation would design every single building on earth.. it would be an art deco utopia..

oh wait. we've done this thread before... who cares what would have happened. in the real world it didnt happen. hitler probably planned to destroy russia long before he was at war so its a moot point... these threads can f%*k themselves, ouch language!.

[Holger Danske]

again.

you forget, that the nazis would obviously have assembled an uber force of supersonic bombers and bombed new york thus bringing the united states to their knees, of course then they would have started the holocaust in the united states too.. great britain would have been conquered by the evil stalin - hitler alliance... the world would have been split between nazis and comunists and we'd all be talking either german or russian, and most tragically, billy ocean would have been white.

No, because Germany did not really have a strategic air force throughout the duration of the war. So them suddenly being able to build a supersonic bomber that could hit New York and return to France is a stupid suggestion, at best. It wasn't really possible to do that until some time after the 1950's.


Edit... Oh you were being scarcasting here, right?

Attack on USSR is Hitler greatest blunder

Lack of proper preparations and constant interference with his competent generals was Hitler's greatest blunder.

One might wonder how things would have turned out had the Soviet Union not made such a poor show out of it's military capabilities during the war with Finland. Like it or not, Russia lost a great deal of "respect" in that conflict, just as she lost a lot of men. Perhaps Hitler wouldn't have been so eager to fight Stalin right away after he had swept away all opposition on mainland Europe...

[Barry Goldwater]

1) What if US doesn't join or doesn't join European theater?
2) What guarantees that allies would have air superiority? You shouldn't discount Luftwaffe so easily.

1) That's out there. Unless Japan has a sane government or is not part of the Axis, that's kinda ASB. Plus you have the Lend-Lease thing going, if the USSR doesn't get involved it probably means Roosevelt will just pour more into Britain that he actually did OTL.

2) The Allies' greater industrial capacity will allow them to produce (and replace) their planes faster than the Germans can. Like someone else said, unless the Germans can get jets first, the Luftwaffe will go down sooner or later, while Allied planes will just keep coming & coming.

Ideology was usually used to back pragmatic decisions. For example before German capitulation US were very friendly to USSR.

Nazi Germany did not have not a sane and pragmatic government.

Anyway, after the war, we'll probably see the US becoming the world's sole superpower decades before they got there OTL - Europe will gradually rebuild itself (obviously, the Marshall Plan helps) and the USSR is isolated and gradually fades away, eventually collapsing like OTL, unless they get more involved in Asia (Europe is a no-go unless they want to start WW3, and after seeing what happened to Germany it's not likely that they'll try anything funny).

[Barry Goldwater]

And how are you going to do that, considering the Germans wouldn't need to concentrate large parts of the Luftwaffe on the Eastern Front?

Ya know, it would really help if you'd read my other posts...

The Allies' greater industrial capacity will allow them to produce (and replace) their planes faster than the Germans can. Like someone else said, unless the Germans can get jets first, the Luftwaffe will go down sooner or later, while Allied planes will just keep coming & coming.

[Nikitn]

Again?

Firebombing of every major Nazi occupied city until we get the A bomb, at which time we vaporize Berlin and the war then ends because people around Hitler finally kill him and surrender. Allies still win unconditionally.

Most of the actual fighting would have taken place in North Africa. If D-Day did occur it would have had the same result in my opinion, the German defense was just to uncoordinated to be effective, that is why the Allies landed so successfully.

Tiberius Tosi, you are ignoring many factors. What makes you think the allies WOULD be able to fire-bomb German cities?

[Tiberius Tosi]

Tiberius Tosi, you are ignoring many factors. What makes you think the allies WOULD be able to fire-bomb German cities?

Same way we did when the Soviets were there, taking off from Britain, bombing Europe, and turning around. If one believe that Britain would fall, fine, then from North Africa. The German Navy was not enough to stop a large scale invasion of N. Africa, and the Allies would use that as a base from which to launch their bombers. That's why I said most of the ground fighting would take place in North Africa, as a place to launch bombers if completely necessary (ie Britain falls, which it wouldn't anyways, Germany lacked the navy to do it effectively and Sealion was a pretty flawed plan) or to protect the Suez. From there maybe Sardinia, Corsica, and Sicily to be able to bomb deeper into Europe.

[Nikitn]

Same way we did when the Soviets were there, taking off from Britain, bombing Europe, and turning around. If one believe that Britain would fall, fine, then from North Africa. The German Navy was not enough to stop a large scale invasion of N. Africa, and the Allies would use that as a base from which to launch their bombers. That's why I said most of the ground fighting would take place in North Africa, as a place to launch bombers if completely necessary (ie Britain falls, which it wouldn't anyways, Germany lacked the navy to do it effectively and Sealion was a pretty flawed plan) or to protect the Suez. From there maybe Sardinia, Corsica, and Sicily to be able to bomb deeper into Europe.

No, you don't understand. What would prevent the Germans from simply shooting down the bombers? Remember, vast majority of German resources aren't used in the Eastern front any more.

[Publius Clodius Pulcher]

No, you don't understand. What would prevent the Germans from simply shooting down the bombers? Remember, vast majority of German resources aren't used in the Eastern front any more.

Well to begin with, you would see a much more intense front in Italy, but yes, lots of German resources would be freed up. The problem is that you can only put X amount of Flak guns in Y square miles, and you have to defend EVERY city in Germany. What essentially happens is that, no matter how good your air defenses are, a certain % of bombers get through, and if your opponent can live with the losses then you still lose. The war would be even more air based than it was historically, something akin to what Douhet envisioned prior to WWII, a war fought almost exclusively through the air.

[conon394]

but to assume it would be the Western Allies?

Not much of an assumption

The German atomic bomb program was sobotaged fatally with the Heavy Water plant and I seem to recall reading that stolen German research used by the Allies to advance their own programs.

The German program was flawed across the board, and none of it leaders thought the Atomic bomb was more than a far far off target. They never ever realized just how far behind they were to the US/UK effort. Aside from wack theories with no support the US/UK got nothing and needed nothing from the German program - unless you count all the scientists who fled Nazi rule before the war and likely would not have been allowed to work for Germany anyway..

In light of the many millions of spare German soldiers there would be with no eastern front, the Allies may not have been able to sabotage the German project and it may well have been the Luftwaffe testing the world's first atomic weapon over London.

The problem is that at no point before or after the Eastern front did the scientific leaders of the German project ever suggest they though they could build a bomb anytime except in the far future. Critically they very much overestimated how much material they needed and the program was never well organized or designed to to more than exploit a single plan/option.

[Norge]

The German program was flawed across the board, and none of it leaders thought the Atomic bomb was more than a far far off target. They never ever realized just how far behind they were to the US/UK effort.

Correction: US effort.

[conon394]

The US program was aided by UK cooperation - yes they had hiccups but in the end the the US and UK did cooperate on the bomb program - of the top of my head uranium form Canada for example.

[Guderian's Duck]

Atomic bombings? Firebombings? Hardly. If the USSR is a non-entity in the war (let's just pretend this makes sense and that the USSR wasn't what Hitler really wanted to take down) and the Germans are able to bring the extra 70-80% of their men, machines, and resources that they'd historically be using to fight the Soviets, the Western Allies would have just had to deal with a stalemate. Since there's no USSR, there's only the UK to deal with after 1940. Some form of invasion of the UK would have had to have happened.

Now, the UK is defeated. At least, the British Isles are. Now what? How is America going to bomb Germany from across the Atlantic? Not even the B-29 had that kind of range. Air campaigns against the Reich would be silly without the massive aircraft carrier known as Britain. The same goes for any amphibious landings. Britain was an important staging ground. The only other option open to the US would be to fight in Africa and hopefully force a landing in Italy. Either that, or through Spain.

Given that the logistics of all of this without the UK in the picture are insane, I have no idea how this would really play out.

That, and Franco was to side with Hitler if the Allies attempted to land in Spain.

[favre4ever]

Now, the UK is defeated. At least, the British Isles are. Now what? How is America going to bomb Germany from across the Atlantic? Not even the B-29 had that kind of range. Air campaigns against the Reich would be silly without the massive aircraft carrier known as Britain. The same goes for any amphibious landings. Britain was an important staging ground. The only other option open to the US would be to fight in Africa and hopefully force a landing in Italy. Either that, or through Spain.

Ireland until it capitulated, iceland, greenland, portugal. So if we swing it the other way, how could Germany seriously threaten the United States? I think a stalemate would be a very generous thought. The Brits are not easily beaten, and you would have to assume that guerrilla warfare and insurrections would persist and hamper German plans to continue their conquest.