Disprove God [Magickyleo101 vs. PureInfantryWins] commentary thread

[magickyleo101]

I say I can "disprove" God. He says I can't. Most of it will probably be about the concept of proof (or at least that's the part I'm most interest in).

[Aldgarkalaughskel]

Interesting debate, I'm looking forward to this. A brief clarification of the debaters on how they view religion / the existence of God, would be beneficial both to the debate and the peanut gallery.

[magickyleo101]

Good point; we clarified that via private message before the debate started but I forgot to place that in the message. We've agreed that we're talking about a personified, omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent God. That's all I need since I'm using problem of evil.

[Phier]

Good point; we clarified that via private message before the debate started but I forgot to place that in the message. We've agreed that we're talking about a personified, omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent God. That's all I need since I'm using problem of evil.

Reach out and touch me.

Sadly though you can have an omni-everything god and still make an excuse for evil called 'Gods Plan'.

From the debate...

2-Parents. Of course they will go through pain from the loss. But this pain is a great opportunity to find comfort in God. It's basically God giving you a chance to come to him. If they are already Christians, you can never stop growing closer to God. He's just making the relationship stronger.

If god were to do that to my child as a lesson in loving him, I'd attempt to figure out a way when I died to do the celestial equivalent of pissing in his face. You see perhaps god is beyond our morals and understanding, but in my world if you give my child cancer so I can love you better I will figure out the way to hurt you best to the end of my days. We only have the human sense of right and wrong to go by and 'give children cancer' is never on the right side of the equation.

If we are 'gods children' as they so liked to tell me back in my Christian days, this would be child abuse. Its one thing to teach us a lesson, sometimes painful, but its another to kill your puppy because you didn't tell your parent you loved them that morning. Its the idea of a god which if human would be committed as a psychopath.

[Manoflooks]

PureInfantry, that was a really bad defense. Its like saying "Oh, you'll be fine after, so if you hit yourself in the head with a hammer it's okay."

[magickyleo101]

PureInfantry, that was a really bad defense. Its like saying "Oh, you'll be fine after, so if you hit yourself in the head with a hammer it's okay."

Yea, that was pretty much my response too.


@ Phier:

Sadly though you can have an omni-everything god and still make an excuse for evil called 'Gods Plan'.

You generally hear people use the God's plan defense when they're admitting that they can't think of a reason for the suffering but they're appealing to God having more knowledge than us. It's essentially like saying "yeah, I agree it looks bad but he must have some reason and we're just humans so we can't use this as a basis for doubt."

I actually spent all that time talking about the concept of "proof" in order to lay the groundwork for a response to a defense of this sort (it's probably the most common defense). PureInfantry actually didn't make that argument (apparently he's going to try to think of the justification of all the suffering himself) so a lot of my initial post is (at least thus far) overkill.

That said, he may end up going with the God's plan defense eventually. I think he's probably kind of young (maybe still in high school or something) so I'm feeling kind of bad. I have a degree in philosophy and I've been through all this stuff, so it's a bit uneven so far.

If god were to do that to my child as a lesson in loving him, I'd attempt to figure out a way when I died to do the celestial equivalent of pissing in his face. You see perhaps god is beyond our morals and understanding, but in my world if you give my child cancer so I can love you better I will figure out the way to hurt you best to the end of my days. We only have the human sense of right and wrong to go by and 'give children cancer' is never on the right side of the equation.

If we are 'gods children' as they so liked to tell me back in my Christian days, this would be child abuse. Its one thing to teach us a lesson, sometimes painful, but its another to kill your puppy because you didn't tell your parent you loved them that morning. Its the idea of a god which if human would be committed as a psychopath

Lol. That defense (it's more common than you'd think) has always struck me in the same way.

[Imperator Romani]

Nah, I'm pretty happy with my defense. If Magicyleo wants to post again today he can. We'll debate about what I said there. Part of why I brought the argument here is so I wouldn't have to argue again and again about the same points over and over. So what's the point of arguing with ya'll here when you can just read my posts.

[Phier]

2nd P-You don't seem to know that God gave Satan free rule over Earth(within limits-shown in the story of Job).

You know the story of Job is the classic example of God as a shallow, egotistical dick right?

If taken literally God lets Satan do the initial dirty work killing Jobs whole family (Yea god!) as if they were cattle, and then if I recall god himself torments Job directly.

Pathological.

[Claudius Gothicus]

Are we talking about the religious type of God or the Great Architect one?
The first one is easily disproved as simple mythology but defining god can be quite hard specially if your opponent doesn't use the religious view to defend his position.

EDIT: Never mind this guy is doing the normal Christian defense of God.

[Imperator Romani]

You know the story of Job is the classic example of God as a shallow, egotistical dick right?

If taken literally God lets Satan do the initial dirty work killing Jobs whole family (Yea god!) as if they were cattle, and then if I recall god himself torments Job directly.

Pathological.

Then blesses him with twice as much as He ever had. That .

[magickyleo101]

Then blesses him with twice as much as He ever had. That .

Isn't that a bit like killing someone's puppy and giving them two in return? As little kids say, "I don't want a new puppy! I want MY puppy!" I'm sure it works the same way when your kids have been killed.

[Phier]

Then blesses him with twice as much as He ever had. That .

I'm sorry I made your life for no reason other then to sooth my own ego, here have twice back.

No, I don't think you get it, and you are obviously not a parent. There is no 'twice back'.

[soldierwells]

The point of the Book of Job is faith. Through Jobs' extreme suffering God was able to spiritually spank the devil. God showed that no matter what the devil may do to your flesh or bring to your life, the simple act of faith is more powerful than the greatest of military might.

[soldierwells]

Anyone who is really interested in Christian debate, whether you believe or dont should read the HANDBOOK OF CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS by Peter Kreeft and Ronald K. Tacelli. I just started it but so far Im hooked. I didnt realize how much I didnt know about the relationship between reason and faith. Highly recommened for all.


PEACE

[Imperator Romani]

Actually there was a reason. It was to prove that God is in control no matter how much Satan makes you suffer. Guessin you didn't get that out of it.

[Phier]

Actually there was a reason. It was to prove that God is in control no matter how much Satan makes you suffer. Guessin you didn't get that out of it.

Of course I did, its obvious allegory since I don't think god speaks to people suffering as a whirlwind and talks about how special he is. Really I don't know how anyone could take it as anything BUT allegory.

That doesn't matter, the motivation is that of a psychopath.

Don't forget we are dealing with a guy who supposedly wiped out all the human race except for a single family because he was pissed at them for being 'wicked'.

[Imperator Romani]

Yea, how mean and evil hearted of God to kill those evil people! He should have let them keep being evil and let Noah's family die off so everyone that would ever exist from then on would go to Hell! But He just had to stop evil on earth from spreading to give humanity a chance. How near sighted of Him.

[Phier]

Yea, how mean and evil hearted of God to kill those evil people! He should have let them keep being evil and let Noah's family die off so everyone that would ever exist from then on would go to Hell! But He just had to stop evil on earth from spreading to give humanity a chance. How near sighted of Him.

Yes because the answer is always genocide. I mean its not like GOD could actually change anyones mind, but instead kill them, and their families and their entire civilization. Go God Go!

[Claudius Gothicus]

Yes because the answer is always genocide. I mean its not like GOD could actually change anyones mind, but instead kill them, and their families and their entire civilization. Go God Go!

Also remember that God had already planned all of that to happen, so he's the real creator of evil, in fact he made the people evil to wipe them out later for the Lulz... wait that seems reasonable

[Emanresu]

@ Phier-what he's been telling us is that this god of his gave us free will. So why would that god change their minds. But you gotta respect him for trying.

@ Claudius- Haha that's what I would do. Make an ant farm then shrink myself then go to town