>>>Test Results: Rhunnic shock elite infantry(Loke Flag-Rim) seems useless!<<<

[Smaug]

Being in the middle of a very pleasant long campaign(VH/VH) and being able to afford various full stacks of Loke-Units made me think about the function of the two Golden Infantry units in battle map.

So, I ran a series of tests to determine the best use of the two Rhunnic Loke-infantry (Shock and Pike). I ran tests against Mordor so that both had only two units: a crappy unit as the general+the unit under research. Then I fought a series of battles, first against Uruk Shock infantry and then against Uruk Halberds. In the first series of tests I started the battle with default deployment(more or less a square) and simply clicked them to attack the Uruks. In the second series I spread my unit into a rectangle formation of 4x37 and commanded them to attack the Uruks. Unit size was on huge. Version was vanilla 1.1. Here are my test results:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Loke-Pike vs. Uruk-Shock
Default formation: Lost. On average they were left with 59 Uruks and they routed my Pikes 100% of time.
4-lines formation: Won. On average I was left with 102 Pikes and I routed the Uruks 100% of time.

Loke-Shock vs. Uruk-Shock
Default formation: Lost. On average they were left with 81 Uruks and they routed my Flag Rim 100% of time.
4-lines formation: Tie. I won the Uruks 60% of time. On winning I was, on average, left with 21 soldiers. On losing they were, on average, left with 39 Uruks.


Loke-Pike vs. Uruk-Halberd
Default formation: Won.On average I was left with 107 Pikes and I routed the Uruks 100% of time.
4-lines formation: Won.On average I was left with 80 Pikes and I routed the Uruks 100% of time.

Loke-Shock vs. Uruk-Halberd
Default formation: Won. On average I was left with 89 soldiers and I routed the Uruks 100% of time.
4-lines formation: Won. On average I was left with 67 soldiers and I routed the Uruks 100% of time.

In addition, I ran a few tests against Black Numenorean Cavalry with both Loke-Units. The result was obvious: Loke-Pikes utterly annihilated the Cavalry whereas Loke Shock-Infantry was crushed by the same Cavalry.

Conclusion: Loke Flag-Rim(Shock) is in every aspect inferior to Loke Gamp-Rim(Pikes). Loke Flag-Rim did worse in each test category, that is to say; against halberds, against shock infantry AND against heavy cavalry.

EDIT: Note the radical changes in the outcome when formation was spread to be 4 soldiers thick only. Especially in the case of the Pikes against Uruk-Shock it reversed the outcome of the battle 100% of time! In fact the result is logical; being spread out, instead of just standing in line to wait their turn, more soldiers can participate in the battle thus killing more efficiently. Even more so with the pikes as they can attack from all 4 ranks at the same time.

What do you think about these results?

Additional note: I noticed that turning the spear wall off didn't have any visual effect when the units were engaged. However, it caused my pikes to interrupt their own charge and lower their pikes(as in spear wall) just before hitting the enemy line. They still continued to attack from many lines as if they were in spear wall. However, having the spear wall turned off always caused me heavier casualties and resulted me to lose. Can someone explain this odd behaviour and the possible advantages of turning the spear wall off?

For me it also seems impossible to make the first line of the Loke-Pikes to take the prone position as they are shown in their preview. Is there an advantage in this prone position?

[paganmetal3r]

Loke Gamp-Rim FTW

They only prone in guard mode. Same in vanilla

[Smaug]

Loke Gamp-Rim FTW

They only prone in guard mode. Same in vanilla

Interesting. Does it have some sort of an advantage?

[kabeast]

While I can't speak from experience with these individual units (I only got the mod recently) there may still be some advantage to the shock troops. They have the advantage of flexibility. The pike unit *should* fall easily if attacked from the flank or rear (again, no experience, just an assumption based off of other mods and vanilla, as well as knowing about the formation in general). This of course will never happen in a 1 on 1 battle, but on a full-scale one, sure. The shock units still should serve some purpose as your flanks or a rear reserve. The pike units should make up the mainstay of your line (assuming you can afford it).

[Olifantenstaart]

They sure look nice though
I would love to see these units in chariots, representing the wainriders. Probably added in future updates.

[Smaug]

Two things:
1. Mordor doesn't have Uruks, they have orcs (just FYI)
2. There's more to units than just fighting ability. A super unit that costs a bunch will be as cost effective as dirt-cheap peasants, who are superior number. Look at the cost balance, upkeep, etc.
3. Also, pikes are very vulnerable to arrows and crossbows (even if they do have kickass armor) because of their lack of shield

1. I don't know but that's the name under which they appear in the mod.
2. That's the thing. The Loke Shock-Infantry is more expensive to recruit AND has a costlier upkeep.
3. That's absolutely true.

as far as the shock infantry, a one on one test like you are doing is meaningless, all units are supposed to be used in a military style way with supporting units to make of up their weakness's, also putting them against Mordor Uruk's isnt a fair match up as the Uruk units are supposed to be supperior, put them against Rohan's same shock units or dale's or possibly gondor's and you will get different results, partly because the uruks have more soldiers per unit which in a dual makes a difference.

That is my point. The test shows that the Loke Shock Infantry has no advantages with which to complement and support the Loke-Pikes. (apart from protecting the rear maybe, as kabeast mentioned).

The purpose of this test was to compare the two Loke-Infantries, NOT the Mordor units in question. Mordor was chosen just because it happens to have in it's roster all types of units I wanted to test against.

They have the advantage of flexibility. The pike unit *should* fall easily if attacked from the flank or rear...The shock units still should serve some purpose as your flanks or a rear reserve. The pike units should make up the mainstay of your line (assuming you can afford it).

Agreed.

[Warmaster Tibs]

Thank you for this info. This will help me in my rhun campaign.

[Theseus1234]

Two things:
1. Mordor doesn't have Uruks, they have orcs (just FYI)
and 2. There's more to units than just fighting ability. A super unit that costs a bunch will be as cost effective as dirt-cheap peasants, who are superior number. Look at the cost balance, upkeep, etc.
Also, pikes are very vulnerable to arrows and crossbows (even if they do have kickass armor) because of their lack of shield

[jinjo]

ya there are 2 loke flag infantry and one of them is really useless

[Jimbe]

1. Mordor doesn't have Uruks, they have orcs (just FYI)

Uruk means orc in the black tongue does it not?

(on-topic)
You could always up the stats on the loke-flag rim to your liking, or lower stats of gamp-rim(pikemen) etc I gave them a little more attack power, defence skill and armor, also i guess it depends on what submod your using e.g RC

[Elendil232]

Mordor does not have Uruk-Hai, they have Uruks, they are a larger breed of orce bread mostly by the which king at minas morgrul (in the third age anyway)

as far as the shock infantry, a one on one test like you are doing is meaningless, all units are supposed to be used in a military style way with supporting units to make of up their weakness's, also putting them against Mordor Uruk's isnt a fair match up as the Uruk units are supposed to be supperior, put them against Rohan's same shock units or dale's or possibly gondor's and you will get different results, partly because the uruks have more soldiers per unit which in a dual makes a difference.

[chriswhite]

Mordor does not have Uruk-Hai, they have Uruks, they are a larger breed of orce bread mostly by the which king at minas morgrul (in the third age anyway)

as far as the shock infantry, a one on one test like you are doing is meaningless, all units are supposed to be used in a military style way with supporting units to make of up their weakness's, also putting them against Mordor Uruk's isnt a fair match up as the Uruk units are supposed to be supperior, put them against Rohan's same shock units or dale's or possibly gondor's and you will get different results, partly because the uruks have more soldiers per unit which in a dual makes a difference.

The race of Uruk-hai, described as very large black Orcs of great strength, first appeared about the year 2475 of the Third Age, when they conquered Ithilien and the city of Osgiliath. These original Uruks were of Sauron's breeding, but Saruman bred his own, making further improvements, such as resistance to sunlight and a larger, more upright stature. Larger and stronger then other breeds of orc, they looked down upon and often bullied other Orcs (especially the servants of Sauron).

(wikipedia)

Mordor did have Uruks

Shagrat and Gorbag were Uruk hai

[Elendil232]

The race of Uruk-hai, described as very large black Orcs of great strength, first appeared about the year 2475 of the Third Age, when they conquered Ithilien and the city of Osgiliath. These original Uruks were of Sauron's breeding, but Saruman bred his own, making further improvements, such as resistance to sunlight and a larger, more upright stature. Larger and stronger then other breeds of orc, they looked down upon and often bullied other Orcs (especially the servants of Sauron).

(wikipedia)

Mordor did have Uruks

Shagrat and Gorbag were Uruk hai

since sauruman's Uruk's were improved it stands to reason that perhaps their name should be slightly altered, simply removeing the Hai part on the name would be reasonable, it also stands to reason that sauron being nothing more then a huge eye during that part of the third age (or a shady necromancer, ether way) that the whitch king still likely did most of the actual work (kind of why sauron has servents so he doesnt actually have to do anything lol)

(on topic)
they are there to support the pikes in that they can defend the flanks while the super heavy cataphracts provide the real punch. i wouldnt say they are inferior, they have a strength provided by their axe/mace weapons, they arnt shock infantry, they are heavy infantry that defend the flanks, they dont really have a true shock force, infact the only people who do have a shock force are the elves (both) isenguard, mordor and the OofMM.

[Smaug]

(on topic)
they are there to support the pikes in that they can defend the flanks while the super heavy cataphracts provide the real punch. i wouldnt say they are inferior, they have a strength provided by their axe/mace weapons, they arnt shock infantry, they are heavy infantry that defend the flanks, they dont really have a true shock force, infact the only people who do have a shock force are the elves (both) isenguard, mordor and the OofMM.

Isn't it a bit queer that heavy infantry is guarding the flanks against cavalry when they are precisely not meant against cavalry, whereas the pikes even have the 'good against cavalry'? I myself protect the flanks by placing pikes on the sides in an angle. It has worked every time and at least the AI doesn't get past.

[OfficerJohn]

since sauruman's Uruk's were improved it stands to reason that perhaps their name should be slightly altered, simply removeing the Hai part on the name would be reasonable, it also stands to reason that sauron being nothing more then a huge eye during that part of the third age (or a shady necromancer, ether way) that the whitch king still likely did most of the actual work (kind of why sauron has servents so he doesnt actually have to do anything lol)

That's like no calling orcs orcs because other orcs already are orcs.

And Sauron wasn't an Eye, no.
(I won't take the Eye discussion here)

[Point Blank]

Nobody seems to have mentioned that the shock inf are armor piercing.

[Sabratha]

Mordor does not have Uruk-Hai, they have Uruks, they are a larger breed of orce bread mostly by the which king at minas morgrul (in the third age anyway)

That's how it is in the film. In the book it was Sauron who created Uruk-Hai and they were both in Sauron's and Saruman's armies. Since the mod is based both on the films and books, then I assume that the uruks available for purchase in Sauron's army in the mod are uruk-hai.

[KnowYourEnemy]

what if you let them fight against archers?
who loses the most men when they run across the field to go melee

[Warmaster Tibs]

what if you let them fight against archers?
who loses the most men when they run across the field to go melee

Thats why you bring cavarly.

[lennartje]

Thats why you bring cavarly.

And you're supposed to outflank pikes...
It's really hard to balance out 2 units with completely different uses. Pikes will get crushed under arrows, where the Rim will have less problems. Pikes are easily outflanked (and then they're annihilated), Rim doesn't have that problem.

In 1 to 1 close combat, pikes will be better than the Rim, but there's more than just that. It fully depends on what you're going to fight, what would be best.