Christianity and Women

[Aldgarkalaughskel]

Some posters continue to attack me for daring to criticize the issue of women's situation in Islamic communities. Well, first off, there's a difference between openly criticizing something and hating, I'm not hating any religion.

Secondly, I am criticizing other religions too, check this debate f.e. So here's a thread where we can criticize how Christianity treated and treats women in society. Let's start by quoting some Christian notabilities on the subject.

St. Tertullian (about 155 to 225 CE):
"Do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the Devil's gateway: You are the unsealer of the forbidden tree: You are the first deserter of the divine law: You are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God's image, man. On account of your desert even the Son of God had to die." 1,2

St. Augustine of Hippo (354 to 430 CE). He wrote to a friend:
"What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman......I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children." 10

St. Thomas Aquinas (1225 to 1274 CE):
"As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence."

Martin Luther (1483 to 1546):
"If they [women] become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth, that's why they are there." 9

Matilda Josyln Gage, et. al, "1876 Declaration of Rights" on the rights of women.
"...we declare our faith in the principles of self-government; our full equality with man in natural rights; that woman was made first for her own happiness, with the absolute right to herself - to all the opportunities and advantages life affords for her complete development; and we deny that dogma of the centuries, incorporated in the codes of nations - that woman was made for man - her best interests, in all cases, to be sacrificed to his will. We ask of our rulers, at this hour, no special favors, no special privileges, no special legislation. We ask justice, we ask equality, we ask that all the civil and political rights that belong to citizens of the United States, be guaranteed to us and our daughters forever."

Yet, some other ones from the 20th century:

Reformation Fellowship of the East Valley, Mesa, AZ (circa 1995)
"In the beginning God made man male and female. He made Adam first, and then made Eve from Adam's rib. This order of creation subordinates wives to their husbands in marriage, and women to men in the church. As an act of submission to their Creator women are commanded to submit to their husbands and to male leadership in the church. Women are not allowed to teach or have authority over men in any formal capacity in the church." 3

Pope John Paul II (1995)
"Woman's identity cannot consist in being a copy of man, since she is endowed with her own qualities and prerogatives, which give her a particular uniqueness that is always to be fostered and encouraged... To all in our age who offer selfish models for affirming the feminine personality, the luminous and holy figure of the Lord's Mother shows how only by self-giving and self-forgetfulness towards others is it possible to attain authentic fulfillment of the divine plan for one's own life." 4

Statement by "Christians for Biblical Equality" a conservative Christian organization
"...the Bible, properly interpreted, teaches the fundamental equality of men and women of all racial and ethnic groups, all economic classes, and all age groups, based on the teachings of scripture as reflected in Galatians 3:28: 'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.' " 7

Jerry Falwell
"Most of these feminists are radical, frustrated lesbians, many of them, and man-haters, and failures in their relationships with men, and who have declared war on the male gender. The Biblical condemnation of feminism has to do with its radical philosophy and goals. That's the bottom line."

The Council on Biblical Manhood & Womanhood (1997)
"...God, by creating Adam first (Gen. 2:18; 1 Cor. 11:8) and also by creating woman for man (Gen. 2:18,20,22; 1 Cor. 11:9), has set the gender-based role and responsibility of males in the most basic unit of society (the family) to be that of leader, provider and self-sacrificial protector (also cf. Eph. 5:25; 1 Peter 3:7), and likewise has set the gender-based role and responsibility of females to be that of help and nurture (Gen. 2:18) and life-giving (Gen. 3:20) under male leadership and protection (cf. 1 Peter 3:7)..." 8

Randall Terry, head of Operation Rescue
"...make dads the godly leaders [of the family] with the women in submission, raising kids for the glory of God."

Unitarian Universalist Association: statement of principles and purposes. This faith group had been classified as a liberal Christian denomination in past deecades. By 1999, only about 25% of its members regarded themselves as Christian.
"The Association declares and affirms its special responsibility, and that of its member societies and organizations, to promote the full participation of persons in all of its and their activities and in the full range of human endeavor without regard to race, color, sex, disability, affectional or sexual orientation, age, or national origin and without requiring adherence to any particular interpretation of religion or to any particular religious belief or creed."

Anon, "Why women need freedom from religion," pamphlet 5
"The various Christian churches fought tooth and nail against the advancement of women, opposing everything from women's right to speak in public, to the use of anesthesia in childbirth...and woman's suffrage. Today the most organized and formidable opponent of women's social, economic and sexual rights remains organized religion. Religionists defeated the Equal Rights Amendment. Religious fanatics and bullies are currently engaged in an outright war of terrorism and harassment against women who have abortions and the medical staff which serves them."

As you can see, these statements vary from sheer oppression and defining women as inferior beings, to restricting their role in society. One may also point out the fact, that women can't be in leading positions in the Catholic Church. This is in contradiciton with the egalitarian nature of Christianity btw.

Let's welcome all criticism, and try to avoid comparisons with other religions please.

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_of_women
http://www.religioustolerance.org/lfe_bibl.htm
http://womenshistory.about.com/od/ch..._and_Women.htm

[ShADoW]

oh boy..

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

are you atheist btw?

[Chaigidel]

I have always found the attachment of the "first crime against god" to the woman to be a curious stance especially considering the prominence of the woman in many polytheistic faiths--- oh wait I think it does make sense.

perhaps the monogod people decided to bring down the whole foundation of "wise woman" especially displayed in witch mythology.

[jankren]

Religion and women are incompatible.

[Trey]

Religion and women are incompatible.

Yes because they have no understanding of i... oh wait. Most of the religious people I know are women.

[Don in the North]

one thing i find humorous, this might be slightly off topic, is how when christians are argueing with other oppressive religion's followers about "whos is the better faith" etc, christians will almost *always* chirp up and quote how free their women are, and often use that as a moral pedestal.

the irony here is that it was the liberal hippies(and the women themselves, mostly) that truely 'freed' women, much to the behest of bible thumping men across the globe, quoting the same scripture PW has provided in OP.
The hippies movement effectively moved them up from second class citizens to their rightful place as equals. the womens rights movements started in 1900-1910ish but it wasnt untill the 60s or 70s that they finally got their full rights.
truely, i get a good hearty chuckle everytime i see it. loveitlikekfc!

[Lance-Corporal Jones]

one thing i find humorous, this might be slightly off topic, is how when christians are argueing with other oppressive religion's followers about "whos is the better faith" etc, christians will almost *always* chirp up and quote how free their women are, and often use that as a moral pedestal.

the irony here is that it was the liberal hippies(and the women themselves, mostly) that truely 'freed' women, much to the behest of bible thumping men across the globe, quoting the same scripture PW has provided in OP.
The hippies movement effectively moved them up from second class citizens to their rightful place as equals. the womens rights movements started in 1900-1910ish but it wasnt untill the 60s or 70s that they finally got their full rights.
truely, i get a good hearty chuckle everytime i see it. loveitlikekfc!

Hippies my foot, my good man! The Spanish Second Republic (1931-1939) gave women full rights, including universal suffrage, divorce rights and equality before the law.

Too bad that idiot Franco moved in and screwed everything up... D'oh!

[Visna]

The Bible is packed with sexism underlining the subservient role of women.
And women should even wear headscarves and dress modestly. And certainly no jewelry, God no, that is un-Christian. So get out that ragged sack and the ashes, because that's all you as woman is allowed to wear.

[Big Pacha]

Dear PowerWizard,

As you have probably guessed we can make the difference between Harsh critics (OK) and Haters (not OK)
That's contested by some Brothers but I count you on the First category so we can discuss (even if you take sectarian stereotypes for truths and you really pissed me off with that Poll).

It is not you I am targeting even if TBH I have some doubts on your sincerity (like you had on mine, remember? ) The real haters know... and BTW this will go to TWC Independent Tribunal (without implicated Judges). Hotspur seems impartial.

Just to clarify a detail or misunderstanding.

[Mr. Pink]

Can any sum all that up in a small paragraph, please? Waaay too much to read.

[PointOfViewGun]

What we did in my history course was we first looked at the Kramer and Sprenger's Hammer of Withces and then looked at a Times articles about the role of women in American society. The conclusion was that not a lot was changed and the role of the women is a a little bit more modern and fit to 20th century public version of the medieval view of women.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Yet historically Christianity has been more respectful of women than Islam with some rough patches. On the one hand there are many female saints, and of course Mary, who is to be venerated by all true Christians. Then on the other hand witch hunts seemed to target women and women only.

[bushbush]

Yet historically Christianity has been more respectful of women than Islam with some rough patches. On the one hand there are many female saints, and of course Mary, who is to be venerated by all true Christians. Then on the other hand witch hunts seemed to target women and women only.

it's tough to make an historical comparison in my view, considering women's rights are only began to be respected even in the West very recently.

[PointOfViewGun]

Yet historically Christianity has been more respectful of women than Islam with some rough patches. On the one hand there are many female saints, and of course Mary, who is to be venerated by all true Christians. Then on the other hand witch hunts seemed to target women and women only.

The state of women in Islamic regions have been this bad only in the past century. Also it's not like there are no holy female figures in Islam.

[Dr. Croccer]

Yet historically Christianity has been more respectful of women than Islam with some rough patches. On the one hand there are many female saints, and of course Mary, who is to be venerated by all true Christians. Then on the other hand witch hunts seemed to target women and women only.

Though argueing on whether Christians or the Muslims treated women best is like argueing on the subject of whether Hitler or Stalin treated the Poles best.

[Sher Khan]

Yet historically Christianity has been more respectful of women than Islam with some rough patches. On the one hand there are many female saints, and of course Mary, who is to be venerated by all true Christians. Then on the other hand witch hunts seemed to target women and women only.

Veneration of a few female saints is not an example of veneration or respect of women, but respect of the spiritual fortitude of a model Christian in spite of being a woman (and a man, in the opposite cases).

Except for the nobility and the birth of the cult of chivalry, there is little in the way of showing true respect of property or independence of women before modern times. The birth of the modern world and its secularization however did not solve this. Rather, it was exacerbated as religious piety increased in this age to the detriment of the Church's political power and combined with a growing faith in secular science that, at that point, only confirmed the inferior status of women biologically as well as spiritually in the eyes of men. That the modern European state began to move away from Medieval theologically-inspired law systems and onto a Roman inspired one did not change (and perhaps made worse) the legal status of women.

This was a trend that only saw change in the past century.



The position of women in Islam is a bit different in its development. Veneration of worthy religious women in the past is nothing special to either Christianity or Islam, and cannot be a reason as to affect the status of women in either scenario. And while both have had their share of religious text used to subjugate women under men, both also have scriptural backing for the equality of the woman, the denouncement of any sense of superiority in the eyes of God by way of gender. What is driving both, in the end, is the ever-building patriarchal culture based on both 'religion' and 'science.' Women are blamed as agents of sin in Augustine as an excuse for his life of debauchery and free love when younger, women cannot be trusted or counted upon as political agents thanks to Aisha losing the battle of the Camel, women naturally are given in to their passions or have some deficiency in the mind, and so on and so forth. The only slight difference in both is the need to classify one sex as more sinful or prone to sin as the other, probably owing to Islam's more lenient attitude towards sensuality and family life than Christianity under Augustine influence. However, this leads also to a respect of women as mothers, but hardly ever as just a woman, which made 18th century Ottoman ambassadors comment wryly on how noble women are treated in chivalric fashion.

After all,
"Say, tyrant Custom, why must we obey
The impositions of they haughty sway?"
~Sarah Egerton, 'The Emulation' 1703

[Shi Huangdi]

First of all, when we discuss issues of Christian doctrine, the best place to start is the Bible. What certain theologians have said is important and worthy of consideration, but it does not define Christianity. True Christianity is based on the Word of God, and nothing else. But I will address some of the quotes you have provided.

St. Tertullian (about 155 to 225 CE):
"Do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the Devil's gateway: You are the unsealer of the forbidden tree: You are the first deserter of the divine law: You are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God's image, man. On account of your desert even the Son of God had to die." 1,2

This is unfair to Eve (and it is possible that this paragraph is taken out of context, because from all I've heard Tertullian was a very solid theologian). Look at Genesis chapter 3. God places most of the blame on Adam, not Eve (although He curses both of them). Eve was deceived; Adam was just stupid. So if anything, the account of the Fall reflects well on Eve, because she had to be convinced to sin, while Adam just followed her without bothering to think.

St. Augustine of Hippo (354 to 430 CE). He wrote to a friend:
"What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman......I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children." 10

We need to understand that Augustine struggled with sexual immorality and fornication before he was converted, and this could also be a reaction to the prevalence of perversion in the Roman Empire. Of course, that doesn't excuse comments like this; but the Catholic Church for centuries had wrong ideas about the role of sex, which was something that the Reformers in the 1500s and 1600s reacted to.

The Council on Biblical Manhood & Womanhood (1997)
"...God, by creating Adam first (Gen. 2:18; 1 Cor. 11:8) and also by creating woman for man (Gen. 2:18,20,22; 1 Cor. 11:9), has set the gender-based role and responsibility of males in the most basic unit of society (the family) to be that of leader, provider and self-sacrificial protector (also cf. Eph. 5:25; 1 Peter 3:7), and likewise has set the gender-based role and responsibility of females to be that of help and nurture (Gen. 2:18) and life-giving (Gen. 3:20) under male leadership and protection (cf. 1 Peter 3:7)..." 8

The problem with this is that it seems to indicate that all women are in subjection to all men, which is false and nowhere stated in the Bible. The Bible merely states that wives are subject to their husbands; it has no general directives placing all men in authority over all women.

I think it's best to think of the roles of husband and wife as analogous to the roles of God the Father and God the Son. Christians do not honor God the Son less than God the Father; yet when God the Son lived on Earth as Jesus, He was clearly subordinate to the Father. Jesus and God the Father are the same in substance, power, and glory, yet one is clearly subordinate to the other.

Subjection does not imply inferiority. The fact that I am subject to my government does not mean that I am somehow inferior to any government official.

[Sosobra]

Veneration of a few female saints is not an example of veneration or respect of women, but respect of the spiritual fortitude of a model Christian in spite of being a woman (and a man, in the opposite cases).

Except for the nobility and the birth of the cult of chivalry, there is little in the way of showing true respect of property or independence of women before modern times. The birth of the modern world and its secularization however did not solve this. Rather, it was exacerbated as religious piety increased in this age to the detriment of the Church's political power and combined with a growing faith in secular science that, at that point, only confirmed the inferior status of women biologically as well as spiritually in the eyes of men. That the modern European state began to move away from Medieval theologically-inspired law systems and onto a Roman inspired one did not change (and perhaps made worse) the legal status of women.

This was a trend that only saw change in the past century.

The position of women in Islam is a bit different in its development. Veneration of worthy religious women in the past is nothing special to either Christianity or Islam, and cannot be a reason as to affect the status of women in either scenario. And while both have had their share of religious text used to subjugate women under men, both also have scriptural backing for the equality of the woman, the denouncement of any sense of superiority in the eyes of God by way of gender. What is driving both, in the end, is the ever-building patriarchal culture based on both 'religion' and 'science.' Women are blamed as agents of sin in Augustine as an excuse for his life of debauchery and free love when younger, women cannot be trusted or counted upon as political agents thanks to Aisha losing the battle of the Camel, women naturally are given in to their passions or have some deficiency in the mind, and so on and so forth. The only slight difference in both is the need to classify one sex as more sinful or prone to sin as the other, probably owing to Islam's more lenient attitude towards sensuality and family life than Christianity under Augustine influence. However, this leads also to a respect of women as mothers, but hardly ever as just a woman, which made 18th century Ottoman ambassadors comment wryly on how noble women are treated in chivalric fashion.

After all,
"Say, tyrant Custom, why must we obey
The impositions of they haughty sway?"
~Sarah Egerton, 'The Emulation' 1703

Well put Khan.

@Beren
From the Dictionary

1. Being in a position or in circumstances that place one under the power or authority of another or others

When ever some one is over someone one party has more power over the other. The Idea that Husbands should hold power over there wives has no place in modern society.

[Каие]

Yet historically Christianity has been more respectful of women than Islam with some rough patches. On the one hand there are many female saints, and of course Mary, who is to be venerated by all true Christians. Then on the other hand witch hunts seemed to target women and women only.

And there are no female Muslim saints and heroes?