Macedonia in the 20th century

[BasileII]

I tried to find something serious about this on this forum, and found only some FYROM bashing. I would like this topic to be as polite and 'nationalist-stupidness'less as possible.

So, here is how Macedonia's (the Republic, nor the Greek one, nor the Bulgarian one) history is teached in educated level (not in high school, as it is, in every country, the usual nationalist crap. Even in Canada!):
1.Macedonians are not from the 'hellenic' ethnic family. They are mostly Slavs, speaking a south-slavonic language (meaning in the same language family than Russian or Polish, but still quite far. Maybe like German and English).
2.The Slavs installed during the 6th-7th century on former Byzantine lands, raiding and occupying lightly occupied areas. The province which is now Macedonian republic was called Macedonia.
3.They've ultimately been conquered by Byzantines, then by Turks (quite a long time covered in a few words. Not because I do not know what happened, just because it is quite useless right now).
4.In the 19th and the beginning of the 20th, Ottoman's domination over Balkans was progressively broken. Serbia conquered its independance, Greece and Bulgaria too. The territory ofthe actual Macedonian's republic stayed inside the empire.
5.In 1911, these 3 countries + Montenegro went at war against Ottomans. After the war, each one o them took what he can, they disagreed, they went at war between each other, the Bulharianslosing this balkanic war. What was at the time Macedonia (the ottoman Macedonia) was divised, one part to the Greek, one part to the Serbians, one part to the Bulgarians. Each one hide behind the 'right of the nationalities' to get these territories, claiming it was their 'brethren' which lived in this territory. It was false, as people were just living in the ottoman empire at the time and families were separated.

Now, I don't want any argument about Greeks being direct descendant of Plato, Pericles or Alexander. Even the great Ostrogorsky finally pointed out that Greeks have always been the majority in Thessaly and the southern parts of Greece.

But I would like to know what is said on the other side of the frontier. Is Thessalonica's countryside considered to have always been 'hellenisticaly' populated? And gosh, what's the hatred for Macedonian's republic? Is there something I missed?

I repeat, no stupidities. I now there is a risk.

[il padrino]

I tried to find something serious about this on this forum, and found only some FYROM bashing. I would like this topic to be as polite and 'nationalist-stupidness'less as possible.

So, here is how Macedonia's (the Republic, nor the Greek one, nor the Bulgarian one) history is teached in educated level (not in high school, as it is, in every country, the usual nationalist crap. Even in Canada!):
1.Macedonians are not from the 'hellenic' ethnic family. They are mostly Slavs, speaking a south-slavonic language (meaning in the same language family than Russian or Polish, but still quite far. Maybe like German and English).
2.The Slavs installed during the 6th-7th century on former Byzantine lands, raiding and occupying lightly occupied areas. The province which is now Macedonian republic was called Macedonia.
3.They've ultimately been conquered by Byzantines, then by Turks (quite a long time covered in a few words. Not because I do not know what happened, just because it is quite useless right now).
4.In the 19th and the beginning of the 20th, Ottoman's domination over Balkans was progressively broken. Serbia conquered its independance, Greece and Bulgaria too. The territory ofthe actual Macedonian's republic stayed inside the empire.
5.In 1911, these 3 countries + Montenegro went at war against Ottomans. After the war, each one o them took what he can, they disagreed, they went at war between each other, the Bulharianslosing this balkanic war. What was at the time Macedonia (the ottoman Macedonia) was divised, one part to the Greek, one part to the Serbians, one part to the Bulgarians. Each one hide behind the 'right of the nationalities' to get these territories, claiming it was their 'brethren' which lived in this territory. It was false, as people were just living in the ottoman empire at the time and families were separated.

Now, I don't want any argument about Greeks being direct descendant of Plato, Pericles or Alexander. Even the great Ostrogorsky finally pointed out that Greeks have always been the majority in Thessaly and the southern parts of Greece.

But I would like to know what is said on the other side of the frontier. Is Thessalonica's countryside considered to have always been 'hellenisticaly' populated? And gosh, what's the hatred for Macedonian's republic? Is there something I missed?

I repeat, no stupidities. I now there is a risk.

you missed to say that betwen byzantines,and turks,they were part of both serbia and bulgaria,also for a long time...

so it wasn't just crazy serbs and blugarians thinking in 19 and 20 century "oh look,here's macedonia,let's conquer it"

[BasileII]

That wasn't what I thought. I did know that they occupied actual Macedonian's republic territory. In fact, the famous Second Bulgar empire (the one detsroyed by Basil II) was centered of Skopje region.

[il padrino]

ok,i just wanted to point out those "little" facts.


and one of emperor dusans capitals was also skopje

[BasileII]

I know this too. I do not try to say there was a 'Macedonian' people living there independantly from the world for thousands years.

[il padrino]

i know,as i said,i just thought your post was "missing" something

[BasileII]

By the way, I changed something to your quote in the 'Quote' thread. Franchet d'espérey wasn't the Commander in chief of all Allied forces. He was CIC of the allied forces in Thessalonica. And for him, it wasn't an honor. He was sent there almost as an exile.

Still, Serbians soldiers were splendid in WWI. If I remember correctly, it was the so-called 'Macedonian legion' which was left to cover the retreat of what was left of the royal army...

[il padrino]

By the way, I changed something to your quote in the 'Quote' thread. Franchet d'espérey wasn't the Commander in chief of all Allied forces. He was CIC of the allied forces in Thessalonica. And for him, it wasn't an honor. He was sent there almost as an exile.

Still, Serbians soldiers were splendid in WWI. If I remember correctly, it was the so-called 'Macedonian legion' which was left to cover the retreat of what was left of the royal army...

i'm not familiar with that
i know that the montenegrin army at Mojkovac battle gave us time to retrat


anyways,yes i know he was commander in greece,but i didn't know that it wasn't an honour for him

anyways,he had only words of praise for serb soldiers,and he was a good general.for that he has a monument in belgrade

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Nikos]

Here is the Ottoman census for 1893.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As you can see in the province of Selanik (Macedonia) Greeks are the majority Christian population. And incidentally, there is no mentioon of a "Macedonian" ethnicity, though that is a separate issue.

[clandestino]

Here is the Ottoman census for 1893.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As you can see in the province of Selanik (Macedonia) Greeks are the majority Christian population. And incidentally, there is no mentioon of a "Macedonian" ethnicity, though that is a separate issue.

That census was conducted by confessional affiliation not by nationality, in accordance to Ottoman millet system. The '' Greeks '' were all orthodox christians subjected to Patriarch of Constantinople ( Ecumenical patriarchate ) no matter what nationality they were, the '' Bulgarians '' were orthodox christians subjected to Bulgarian exarchate again no matter what nationality they were, while
the '' Muslims '' were Turks, Arabs, Kurds, Albanians etc. Before 1872. when Bulgarian exarchate was created all orthodox christians in Ottoman empire were '' Greeks '' cause they were under jurisdiction of Greek Patriarche of Constantinople, no matter if they were Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs, Vlachs or '' Macedonians ''.

[BasileII]

You do now there of course far more ethnicity than these in the empire, don't you? And that these census are biased (government decide which are the categories). Would you say Kosovo was Bulgarians' populated because of this census? Or that people in the province had no choice but to say they were Bulgarians and not Serbians?

[hellheaven1987]

The fact was that ancient Macedonians stopped distinct themselves with Greeks.

Then Roman came and made everyone Roman.

So basically "Macedon" was dead even before Roman; the current Macedonia was an artificial name based on an old geographical name.

And Macedonia was not "conquered" by Byzantium - it was part of Roman Empire since Byzantium even showed up.

[nopasties]

The fact was that ancient Macedonians stopped distinct themselves with Greeks.

Then Roman came and made everyone Roman.

So basically "Macedon" was dead even before Roman; the current Macedonia was an artificial name based on an old geographical name.

And Macedonia was not "conquered" by Byzantium - it was part of Roman Empire since Byzantium even showed up.

Macedon may have called themselves Greek but I'd like to see any mainland Greek during this time refer to Macedonians as Greek. I'm simply bringing this up that after Phillip and Alexander the Macedonians tried to subject the Greeks and the Macedonians called themselves Greek brothers and such but really how many Athenians or Spartans agreed with this categorization. The whole Byzantine Greek or Roman debate is similar but to be honest I don't have the resources right now to research some of the defining lines and post them. I'm hopefully not taking us off subject but these are some issues. It's tough to seperate the politics involved in the nationalistic definitions and I applaud the effort. Any attempt at this must be able to sort through politicized BS and clarify what is an appropriate definiton and why different polities would use one self-definition over another competing definition. The 1893 census is a good post but if that is as good a source of info we'll get online what was the regional politics and who was the political faction defining these census categories? What was the reasoning for these censuses? If we are to use any post 1893 census data there will probably be alot more corrupt and politicized definitional baggage.

[Nikos]

You do now there of course far more ethnicity than these in the empire, don't you? And that these census are biased (government decide which are the categories). Would you say Kosovo was Bulgarians' populated because of this census? Or that people in the province had no choice but to say they were Bulgarians and not Serbians?

Be that as it may, Greeks are still the majority in Macedonia. I didn't claim that the Slavic Macedonians aren't an ethnic group

[DAVIDE]

spoiler the pic or reduce it as size

[il padrino]

si signore signore !

[neoptolemos]

Now, I don't want any argument about Greeks being direct descendant of Plato, Pericles or Alexander. Even the great Ostrogorsky finally pointed out that Greeks have always been the majority in Thessaly and the southern parts of Greece.

But I would like to know what is said on the other side of the frontier. Is Thessalonica's countryside considered to have always been 'hellenisticaly' populated? And gosh, what's the hatred for Macedonian's republic? Is there something I missed?

I repeat, no stupidities. I now there is a risk.

It is good to refer to Ostrogosky cause after all besides a great Byzantinologist,he had an expert knowledge of Slavic history.

And Greeks (at least at their majority) do not have "hatred" against SlavMacedonians!
It is the propaganda and the falsification of history that irritate the people here

[antaeus]

this might help you with the naming dispute.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute

[Nikos]

From an earlier thread I replied to about the Hellenicness of Ancient Macedon.

Pella curse tablet:
1. [ΘΕΤΙ]ΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΟΣ ΤΟ ΤΕΛΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΟΝ ΓΑΜΟΝ ΚΑΤΑΓΡΑΦΩ ΚΑΙ ΤΑΝ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΠΑΣΑΝ ΓΥ2. [ΝΑΙΚ]ΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΧΗΡΑΝ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΘΕΝΩΝ ΜΑΛΙΣΤΑ ΔΕ ΘΕΤΙΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΚΑΤΤΙΘΕΜΑΙ ΜΑΚΡΩΝΙ ΚΑΙ3. [ΤΟΙΣ] ΔΑΙΜΟΣΙ ΚΑΙ ΟΠΟΚΑ ΕΓΟ ΤΑΥΤΑ ΔΙΕΛΕΞΑΙΜΙ ΚΑΙ ΑΝΑΓΝΟΙΗΝ ΠΑΛLΙΝ ΑΝΟΡΟΞΑΣΑ4. [ΤΟΚΑ] ΓΑΜΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΑ ΠΡΟΤΕΡΟΝ ΔΕ ΜΗ ΜΗ ΓΑΡ ΛΑΒΟΙ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΓΥΝΑΙΚΑ ΑΛΛ Η ΕΜΕ5. [ΕΜΕ Δ]Ε ΣΥΝΚΑΤΑΓΗΡΑΣΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΙ ΚΑΙ ΜΗΔΕΜΙΑΝ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΙΚΕΤΙΣ ΥΜΩΝ ΓΙΝΟ6. [ΜΑΙ ΦΙΛ]ΑΝ ΟΙΚΤΙΡΕΤΕ ΔΑΙΜΟΝΕΣ ΦΙΛ[Ο]Ι ΔΑΓΙΝΑΓΑΡΙΜΕ ΦΙΛΩΝ ΠΑΝΤΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΕΡΗΜΑ ΑΛΛΑ7. [....]Α ΦΥΛΑΣΣΕΤΕ ΕΜΙΝ Ο[Π]ΩΣ ΜΗ ΓΙΝΕΤΑΙ ΤΑ[Υ]ΤΑ ΚΑΙ ΚΑΚΑ ΚΑΚΩΣ ΘΕΤΙΜΑ ΑΠΟΛΗΤΑΙ8. [....]ΑΛ[-].ΥΝΜ .. ΕΣΠΛΗΝ ΕΜΟΣ ΕΜΕ ΔΕ [Ε]Υ[Δ]ΑΙΜΟΝΑ ΚΑΙ ΜΑΚΑΡΙΑΝ ΓΕΝΕΣΤΑΙ9. [-]ΤΟ[.].[-].[..]..Ε.Ε.Ω[?]Α.[.]Ε..ΜΕΓΕ [-] 1. On the formal wedding of [Theti]ma and Dionysophon I write a curse, and of all other2. wo[men], widows and virgins, but of Thetima in particular, and I entrust upon Makron and3. [the] demons that only whenever I dig out and unroll and re-read this,4. [then] may they wed Dionysophon, but not before; and may he never wed any woman but me;5. and may [i] grow old with Dionysophon, and no one else. I [am] your supplicant:6. Have mercy on [your dear one], dear demons, Dagina(?), for I am abandoned of all my dear ones.7. But please keep this for my sake so that these events do not happen and wretched Thetima perishes miserably8. and to me grant [ha]ppiness and bliss.

This was written by a Macedonian woman in the 4th century BC, it is clearly a form of Doric Greek and not a "mystery language". Even I, with a limited knowledge of Modern and Ancient Greek can understand most of the tablet. And certainly ALL Greek speakers can read it. Why would the Macedonians use another people's language and alphabet?

The Persian Empire called the Macedonians "Yuana Takabara" (Greeks with hats) because of the distinctive Macedonian hat(The Kausia)


Look at the coins, all in Greek


It says "Macedonians first"

[nopasties]

[quote=Nikos;5389103]From an earlier thread I replied to about the Hellenicness of Ancient Macedon.
This was written by a Macedonian woman in the 4th century BC, it is clearly a form of Doric Greek and not a "mystery language". Even I, with a limited knowledge of Modern and Ancient Greek can understand most of the tablet. And certainly ALL Greek speakers can read it. Why would the Macedonians use another people's language and alphabet?

The Persian Empire called the Macedonians "Yuana Takabara" (Greeks with hats) because of the distinctive Macedonian hat(The Kausia) quote]

It's a good post, I can't make a counter claim to be honest. My question with this even is would it be appropriate to call Macedon Hellenistic in some sense? I'm not going with any bias here, but a woman in 4th century Macedon using Doric Greek, ok, is this complelling? Did the Greek language disseminate through the areas of Macedon for reasons of trade or culture. Did the Macedonian's have a hierarchy where some commoners use a different language? See where I'm going, I haven't read what these answes are but the question should be what sense of identity did the Macedonian's have? Were the Macedonian's posturing as Greek's for social status because the Greeks were more wealthy and cultured than Macedon's northern neighbors. The division of some of these things is a little more difficult than it appears but I'm simply trying to promote a more philisophical and creative approach to this question. The divisiveness of and amibigities of these questions are what politicians capitalize on. I'm not trying to politicize the discusion, I'm trying to flesh out the question because I think it's a hopeless effort without evaluating the past identities also. The history the area has been dominated by more powerful neighbours and the Thessalonican region has not had a self-promoter for most of it's history. I have no idea how to read any of the languages of the area so I can't deduce anything that way. My contribution unfortunately here can only be by asking questions and hopefully spurring debate. thx