Alternative recruiting/building system for orc factions

[Korsan82]

Here is the deal:

Orcs don't build walls, they don't create beutiful towns, they pillage everything they find and live like parasites. Not in TA. They have nice towns, a working recruitment system, a working economy...

This is a flaw in the great atmosphere of this mod.

This is my suggestion, which I want you to discuss and think about (not this order ):
- orcs cant build anything, not walls, not buildings
- towns owned or captured by orcs should only contain damaged and burning buildings, breaches in walls etc...
- orc factions army doesn't come from human population, so get rid of the recruitment system
- orcs get money per province, no extra buildings that increase this (maybe 500 per province)
- orcs have a basic income of about 1000 or 1500, so each province conquered makes them stronger

The main point:
- Orcs dont recruit in barracks, they use the mercanary system which should be full of units for them. Orcs just gather up under a leader which attract them out of their caves

This would be far more realistic than the current system imo.

I'd like to hear your feedback. This is just what comes out after 5 minutes of hardest thinking, so don't consider this as gold status

[Jean=A=Luc]

Here is the deal:
- orc factions army doesn't come from human population, so get rid of the recruitment system

What about elves/dwarves, they don't come from the "human population" either. Unrealistic though it may be, once a town is captured it's more or less considered to be populated by the race belonging to the conquering army.

I understand what you mean, you just want them to have a different, more "orcish" recruitment system but it would probably raise a lot of balance issue for both the AI and the player.

I guess one could look to RC/RR for more "lore-realistic" recruitment systems.

[Korsan82]

What about elves/dwarves, they don't come from the "human population" either. Unrealistic though it may be, once a town is captured it's more or less considered to be populated by the race belonging to the conquering army.

I understand what you mean, you just want them to have a different, more "orcish" recruitment system but it would probably raise a lot of balance issue for both the AI and the player.

I guess one could look to RC/RR for more "lore-realistic" recruitment systems.

No, my suggestion is only for orc factions. Harad/Rhun, Elves and dwarves should remain as they are. It's also not realistic in game terms but I think that Dwarfes and Elves are much more compatible to Humans than those orcs.

This feature would add great uniqueness (sp?) to the good/bad factions. I'm not a modder but I think it wouldn't be that hard to make too. We already have a mercanary system which we can use, there we add units which only can recruited by certain factions.
As for balancing it wouldn't be hard that hard to make i think - but this is something you guys know better than me -
this would also add some more depth when crossing orcish territories.. 1 general could spam all his neighboring little orc on you. By this way we could also prevent the AI to mass recruit trolls and make them what they are - exceptional tanks

[Smaug]

A very nice suggestion. Although I prefer that some buildings would still be available in the conquered settlements. For example; walls, docks, basic barracks, primitive roads etc. anything that you could suppose that mordor would build. Morannon for example was build by the orcs I think?

[JuL14n]

Here is the deal:

Orcs don't build walls, they don't create beutiful towns, they pillage everything they find and live like parasites. Not in TA. They have nice towns, a working recruitment system, a working economy...

This is a flaw in the great atmosphere of this mod.

This is my suggestion, which I want you to discuss and think about (not this order ):
- orcs cant build anything, not walls, not buildings
- towns owned or captured by orcs should only contain damaged and burning buildings, breaches in walls etc...
- orc factions army doesn't come from human population, so get rid of the recruitment system
- orcs get money per province, no extra buildings that increase this (maybe 500 per province)
- orcs have a basic income of about 1000 or 1500, so each province conquered makes them stronger

- Orcs dont recruit in barracks, they use the mercanary system which should be full of units for them. Orcs just gather up under a leader which attract them out of their caves

This would be far more realistic than the current system imo.

I'd like to hear your feedback. This is just what comes out after 5 minutes of hardest thinking, so don't consider this as gold status

Orcs can't build anything? What about everything they built under ortranc including smithy? There are also
things built in mordor, who built them? It took 600 years to build barad-dûr and sauron used the ring to
make it's foot strong so it could be built as tall as he wanted. That's why it's collapsing when the ring is destroyed.

Orcs are sorcered(?) or spawned = Recruitment

The other thing sounds a bit impossible, no buildings is easy to fix, but
to have a income of 1500 for one faction and not the other one that captures
the settlement can be hard.
And tax income can be hard to remove.

[Korsan82]

You mentioned it yourself - Sauron let them all build and it took many years. But the time period we are playing at orcs are not busy with building, they are pillaging, killing and ruining everything men created. All my suggestions were meant to reflect all these things.

When Orcs conquer buildings all the populations shall get slain and all orc commanders could have attributes which prevent human beings from resettling there when city/castle is under orcish control

[A1_Unit]

How are you going to do that?

[Kassandros]

The best way to do that is to just exterminate the population and then build + to culture buildings. Keep in mind Medieval 2 has a basic structure that there's really no way around. Modders can only work with the original game.

[Korsan82]

How are you going to do that?

Preventing resettlement could be done via character traits. There are some that give malus and some with benefits. Just make it so that orc commanders get very very bad economy/growth traits and you should have no problem. also you could add extra trait like "enemy of the free men" which gives -5 to population growth or so..

I don't know if it is possible to force the AI to exterminate population all the time, but can't that be done be scripting the AI (if anyone knows how to - I don't)

[A1_Unit]

The money problem has to be solved first.

[Korsan82]

The money problem has to be solved first.

like i said:

we have the King's purse from m2 vanilla. We could use this to add a certain income to evil orc factions (not human evil ones). As basic income I'd say 500 (after thinking about it again).

Every province conquered should give +250

So if you start with 3 regions you get 500 + 3 x 250 = 1250 gold per turn.

conquer some more and you'll get stronger - like it should be! Only question would be is it possible to add a province based fix income for certain factions?

Ofc human factions can improve conquered territorries and so increase their cashflow.

[A1_Unit]

Sounds nice but how do you implement that?

[Sevachenko]

I could understand these ideas for OOMM, but Isenguard and Mordor are fine the way they are. Think about it, under intelligent command, the orcs can accomplish a lot quickly. Just look how Isenguard was built up and Mordor has some of the greatest architecture in all of middle earth. When overseen by Nazgul, Black N�ùmenorians, a wizard, and the will of Sauron, They can build and organize armies.

[A1_Unit]

OOTMM only have a Balrog that kills them instead of giving them orders so yes, good idea.

[Withwnar]

I like this overall idea (but no helpful ideas on how to do it). The Apaches in the Kingdoms Americas campaign couldn't 'build' and it was an interesting twist on the game. Frustrating at times but fitting. They couldn't upgrade settlement walls or build roads and could only 'build' their wigwams.

[OfficerJohn]

Only for OotMM, I agree.

And it's more realistic that orcs build during this period than that humans does... or Elves!

Also, in Mordor there are paved roads in the book... Mordor should have more advanced roads...

[A1_Unit]

Only for OotMM, I agree.

And it's more realistic that orcs build during this period than that humans does... or Elves!

Also, in Mordor there are paved roads in the book... Mordor should have more advanced roads...

What, to speed up the full stacks coming to kill your faction?!?!?!

[OfficerJohn]

What, to speed up the full stacks coming to kill your faction?!?!?!

Well, Mordor should have paved roads inside Mordor at least.

Marching to the Black Gate in the books, Sam and Frodo being forced to join the orc company, anyone?

[A1_Unit]

Lore accurate yes, but Mordor will get another advantage over Gondor. Gondor needs something to balance out Mordor's paved roads.

[OfficerJohn]

Lore accurate yes, but Mordor will get another advantage over Gondor. Gondor needs something to balance out Mordor's paved roads.

Gondorian paved roads?