Eugenics: Acceptable or not

[Nikitn]

Well, science is pretty much pushing towards the boundaries of morale and religion. Maybe one day things that are considered disgusting is not in 40 years?

Anyway, what do you think?

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This thread will be reopened. The following changes have been made:

1. The title was changed (more adequately expresses the thread's debate)
2. The poll has been removed (limits debate anyway, and is unnecessary)
3. It has been moved to EMM (this is a moral issue, not a political one)
4. Several posts have been deleted that were obvious insults directed at handicapped people.*

Insults directed at any board member will not be permitted, and you can bet your bottom dollar that I am going to read every post made in this thread, so please stay on topic and don't say anything you wouldn't say to the face of a kindly old WWII veteran.

*Several quotes to keep in mind:

Posts clearly insulting other board members, individually or as a group, directly or indirectly, are not allowed.

Using race, religion, sexual orientation, culture, ethnicity, handicap, nationality, or gender as a means of insult, either directly or implied

Using threatening, harassing, defamatory, hate-speech, or libelous language

~Pontifex

[Aldgarkalaughskel]

You know Nazis pursued a similar policy you are proposing here, don't you?

See it here: http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/...sabilities_02/

[removeduser_426582376423734]

You know Nazis pursued a similar policy you are proposing here, don't you?

See it here: http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/...sabilities_02/

Godwin's Law, post #2.

The Nazis also had a strong military, should we all have weak ones? They also breathed, should we all stop breathing? Just because someone bad did something, doesn't make that thing bad. That said, efficiency that detracts from humanity may lead to a utopia, but just as much a dystopia. Humanity is weak and problematic. I again offer Huxley's Brave New World.

[Lance-Corporal Jones]

Godwin's Law, post #2.

The Nazis also had a strong military, should we all have weak ones? They also breathed, should we all stop breathing? Just because someone bad did something, doesn't make that thing bad. That said, efficiency that detracts from humanity may lead to a utopia, but just as much a dystopia. Humanity is weak and problematic. I again offer Huxley's Brave New World.

A perfect exposition of the classic ad hominem tactic so often used here. +Rep

[Aldgarkalaughskel]

Godwin's Law, post #2.

The Nazis also had a strong military, should we all have weak ones? They also breathed, should we all stop breathing? Just because someone bad did something, doesn't make that thing bad. That said, efficiency that detracts from humanity may lead to a utopia, but just as much a dystopia. Humanity is weak and problematic. I again offer Huxley's Brave New World.

Are you honestly trying to say that the Nazi sterilization of all persons who suffered from diseases considered hereditary is dissimilar to the proposal the OP is making? And are you honestly saying that the Nazi sterilization of the disabled can be compared to a "strong military" and breathing? Seriously, that's the worst strawman ever. I'd advise you to read up on it, at least a little.

On July 14, 1933, the German government instituted the "Law for the Prevention of Progeny with Hereditary Diseases." This law called for the sterilization of all persons who suffered from diseases considered hereditary, including mental illness, learning disabilities, physical deformity, epilepsy, blindness, deafness, and severe alcoholism. With the law's passage the Third Reich also stepped up its propaganda against the disabled, regularly labeling them "life unworthy of life" or "useless eaters" and highlighting their burden upon society.

http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/...sabilities_02/

[removeduser_426582376423734]

Are you honestly trying to say that the Nazi sterilization of all persons who suffered from diseases considered hereditary is dissimilar to the proposal the OP is making? And are you honestly saying that the Nazi sterilization of the disabled can be compared to a "strong military" and breathing? Seriously, that's the worst strawman ever. I'd advise you to read up on it, at least a little.

You should not simply compare the actions of bad people to the thoughts of inquisitive people and paint those latter curious cats with a black brush. Thoughts should be fully thought out and expressed without prior bias, conclusions made after a full explanation of reasons and intermediate conclusions. I disagree wholly with the Nazi strelization of the disabled, but I similarly disagree with your knee-jerk reaction to any idea that may be similar. (This does not mean that I support any idea that is similar, in fact, but I'd rather the world worked with explanation rather than knee-jerk.)

What happened to "I may not agree, but will die for your right to say it"?

While you are so fond of calling on others' logical fallacies, I believe someone called you on your ad hominem, by the way. Learn from yourself.

PW, why do you think eugenics is bad? Because the Nazis did it, or because of some other reason? If it is an other reason, please explain it.

[Chlodwig I.]

What happened to "I may not agree, but will die for your right to say it"?

Don't know but maybe it was killed in the Nazi Gaschambers
or it was a victim of a suicide bomber.

But I guess thats another topic

[Treize]

A hard one....

Ofcourse it puts presure on society, but not allowing someone to have a child...
It depends on the seriousness I think.
Down syndrome and inheritable paralyze...

[Enemy of the State]

People with down's can't reproduce anyway.

I don't think we should forbid them.

[Lance-Corporal Jones]

This is borderline offensive. These people have the right to live their lives freely and fully.

[Admiral Piett]

No. They shouldn't be refused. Even if you looked at it in the most practical view, those that are the most disabled usually can't reproduce.

[Augment]

Don't let them reproduce, natural selection doesn't permit their survival so they should see their living as a gift and shouldn't want to reproduce.

[Lance-Corporal Jones]

These people are innocent of any crime; why do people complain about the disabled when we are feeding and keeping criminals?

[Admiral Piett]

These people are innocent of any crime; why do people complain about the disabled when we are feeding and keeping criminals?

I think the issue is that they are trying to "stop" or slow down the spread of these disabilities. It won't work as there is a percentage anyone can be born with a disability, but I think that their perspective is stop people from spreading inherited diseases around and "polluting the gene pool" as they say.

I do not subscribe to this at all though because it's a big waste of time and we are seeing enough detriment to civil liberties in our society as it is.

[Lance-Corporal Jones]

I think the issue is that they are trying to "stop" or slow down the spread of these disabilities. It won't work as there is a percentage anyone can be born with a disability, but I think that their perspective is stop people from spreading inherited diseases around and "polluting the gene pool" as they say.

I do not subscribe to this at all though because it's a big waste of time and we are seeing enough detriment to civil liberties in our society as it is.

My point was that maintaining incarcerated criminals is costly and a burden to society. Furthermore, the vast majority of these criminals have wantonly committed offenses to society. And I'd be ready to argue that the cost of maintaining prison inmates is far greater than that of maintaining the disabled.

[Enemy of the State]

Guys but I find this thread rather offensive and for personal reasons I do not wish to discuss here!
I hope this is closed by a moderator as I would think this attacks the rights of physically and mentally challenged individuals, however unintentionally offensive the thread was meant to be!

Debating about this subject is offensive? Oh please. People are not that sensitive. And if they are, well that is their own problem.

[Barry Goldwater]

to the ing no.

And didn't Hitler try to pull the same crazy ?

[Gobmech]

It will not be neccesary. Scientists are researching the possibilities of eliminating gene faults from children before they are born.

[Copperknickers II]

Probably not. In theory, they should not be allowed to reproduce, but there are big problems:

1. Putting it into practice would obviously require violation of human rights.

2. Preventing people with hereditary genetic conditions from reproducing would not produce the desired results, it would only make us more vulnerable to diseases and more would always spring up.

[Xen]

Every human should have the right to reporduce, to say that disabled people can not reporduce is nazi-esque.