[FAILED 06/21/09] [Civitate] Kleber (Patron: Bigfootedfred)

**Astaroth** · June 13, 2009, 08:03 AM

Client: Kleber
My greatest interest in Total War Center is being able to discuss politics, history and current affairs in a dynamic, open community. I'd participated on some political forums before, but they all tended to be a bit claustrophobic, a bit stagnant, and they more often than not ended up with a total polarization of one set of views automatically excluding all others. Likewise, discussing history is always a delight, especially when these forums are blessed with extremely knowledgeable posters, some of whose contributions greatly surpass what one learns in the somewhat superficial rush of a history major.

I am generally open-minded, although I have several strong viewpoints which I defend and maintain diligently. Among these, I am a convinced euroskeptic, I am very critical with the current state of British historiography, and I am somewhat concerned, despite being an agnostic, by the systematic religion-bashing which is seen in some circles. I also find French-bashing distasteful and have on occasion actively militated against it.

I like to work on elaborate posts in which I defend a clear position, though I like to engage in light-hearted banter as much as the next person. I have a particular sense of humour which some find a bit caustic sometimes, and which I often insert in liberal doses in my less-serious articles such as my parody of Aristophanes' Clouds set in the European Union. I can enjoy a good controversy, though confrontation puts me off considerably, especially if there is no humour to lighten it up a bit.

As a Civitate, I would try to contribute as best as I could to the extent of my capabilities to the debate in politics as well as in history; I also understand that I would have to be particularly respectful of the site rules in order to set a good example. I would consider it a privilege to be admitted into the ranks of the Civitates under the patronage of Bigfootfred, who has proved to be an excellent debater and who interceded in my favour several times during a heated debate.

As of yet, I have mainly contributed in the Lisbon Treaty thread, with an analysis of Victor Hugo's famous "prophecy"; a brief calque of Aristophanes' Clouds, likewise; I have also posted a brief analysis of a clause of the European Constitution, as well as some general help for the mod "WWI Total War"; an idea for a realism modification of E:TW based on Clausewitz; and a small conmemoration of the battle of Bir Hakeim on its 67th birthday.

Patron: Bigfootedfred
Largely from recent posts and threads, i have seen what are very good quality posts and threads created from kleber, he has made excellent contributions in the pit and poltical academy of late. Although only a member for nearly 3 months, just 1 month over the requirement, has i think shown very good debating skill and a good deal of knowledge and substance. i think he should be granted the civitate badge as he will continue to contribute well in these areas.

some examples
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=268641
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...05#post5348905
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...09#post5355009
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...42#post5355642

Thanks for your time, give him a look over.

**Каие** · June 13, 2009, 09:52 AM

Absolutely support. Check out the EU and Lisbon treaty debates for this guys style. Very good and intelligent posts, which are long and have detail. His attitude is also good natured. An all round good addition to the Curia. I was actually going to ask him my self.

**Viking Prince** · June 13, 2009, 03:18 PM

If debate alone is to carry the day for Citizenship (which it should be able to do) I think the applicant needs to start more threads and continue to contribute to the threads with information as well as opinion.

On threads that are not started, but a contributor to -- the applicant needs to make more than one liners. Regarding the Lisbon thread (since I just reread the whole thread) the bulk of the thread is a bit spammy. He did not start the spam, but his one liners did contribute to it. The thread is painful to read in it's totality. His biggest contribution was the Socrates series which was ignored by the others (not that that is itself a fault of the poster) and did not contribute much to the debate.

I believe the applicant shows potential. I think it is simply to soon though to say the applicant has made a significant contribution to the site with debate and discussion.

Before I decide though, I would like to hear from more of the council.

**Pontifex Maximus** · June 14, 2009, 08:34 AM

He's new, but his posts are excellent. He barely makes the cutoff for membership on the site to be eligible....but his posts are excellent. Once again there is nothing technically keeping him from applying, and although he has barely made it, I think we need to take into account length of contribution. He has only been here for a little over three months. Are we essentially giving him citizenship like we would give him rep for his posts? Or recognizing him for a continued job well done? This is where I start to question my support for him. It isn't that his posts are subpar, its that I would like to see him spend a bit more time in the forum contributing before he is awarded with citizenship for his contributions.

Still, it would feel strange voting no when the posts are obviously good.

**Astaroth** · June 15, 2009, 07:23 AM

Poll added.

**Squid** · June 15, 2009, 02:29 PM

I'm voting no, the tone used in his posts is not a friendly tone, to me there seems to be too much of not the right things. Compared to another of the Civitate candidates this candidate just isn't anywhere near the same league.

**Каие** · June 15, 2009, 02:34 PM

It's not his fault. He is a UKIP supporter. It's in their DNA.

**y2day** · June 16, 2009, 10:14 AM

Agree with Ponti on this one. His post are above average but I think more time to futher contribute is needed.

**Captain Blackadder** · June 16, 2009, 11:53 PM

He is good but there is just not enough there. Next time I will most likly vote yes. So basically I would say keep doing what you are doing.

**Xavier Dragnesi** · June 17, 2009, 01:02 AM

He's made a good start, and has a good potential for a Citizen, but I don't think its yet enough of a contribution to merit a Citizenship. Agreeing with Blackadder - if he keeps what he is doing, then I will vote yes next time.

**the Black Prince** · June 17, 2009, 06:53 AM

He's good, but he's not actually done much has he... give him more time to shine
no, for now

**Captain Blackadder** · June 17, 2009, 08:55 AM

I would like to make a recommendation that in the event that he fails which is looking likely that we send along with the failure notice words to the effect of just keep on doing what your doing and you will make it.

**Justinian** · June 19, 2009, 02:40 PM

I voted yes. I don't think it's necessary to make him wait just because he hasn't been here very long.

**Каие** · June 19, 2009, 02:42 PM

Agreed with Justinian. This argument doesn't hold up.

**y2day** · June 20, 2009, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by Яome kb8

Agreed with Justinian. This argument doesn't hold up.

If a modder made a really good skins for half a faction was put up for Artifex and that was his main contribution. I would recommend him to continue his modding and come back when he has done more.
A D&D guy who is an above average poster and a good debater has only been here a while needs more time to build up his contribution, the same as the modder.

**Augustus Lucifer** · June 20, 2009, 11:49 PM

I regret having missed this vote, I guess I'm not as good at reading dates as I thought. I'd echo Blackadder's sentiment, he should be encouraged to keep pursuing the same things he has been, and know that by and large the council did not take exception with the quality of his posts but the quantity. I think y2day's analogy is an apt one, and while I don't support any time or post statutes, I think unless the applicant really blows me away then some time to develop can be warranted. He'll get there.

I would however have voted Yes if I'd have made the poll end, but it wouldn't have changed the outcome.