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  1. #1

    Default The stepfather of Europe

    One of the silliest discussions which always arise in some historiographical (cough) circles is Charlemagne's alleged paternity of Europe -- the "united" and "fraternal" Europe which those fellows in Brussels idealize, not the real one. It is part of the eternal endeavor to find a father (why not a mother, I wonder?) to every single thing on Earth.

    First of all, I do believe that to try to find a presige reference for the EU exploiting and distorting the past is shameful. Especially because with this object, the results are always ridiculous due to ignorance and political oportunism. It's a sorry state of affairs when politicians play historians and when historians play politicians. It's obvious that the first unifiers of what is now the greater part of the EU were, quite simply, Napoleon and Hitler, both of them strongmen who got there by flexing military muscle. In any case, characters which aren't that worthy of the European "peace" and "solidarity" which Brussels chants so enthusiastically.

    Now of course, as the pan-europeanists aren't as dumb as to look for idols in these two characters -- despite the fact that that, in Napoleon's case, French patriotic mysticism has exalted him ever since the 19th century all the way to Sarkozy -- it has proven necessary to go back even further in order to see if there was anyone who adjusted to the requirements of being the "father" of the pretended "European unity". They could have gone back to Charles V, Constantine or the first Roman emperors, but it so turns out our friend Charlemagne (742-814) took the cake.

    I, for one, think that Charlemagne would die laughing if he saw this. The Emperor of the Franks was remarkable in many ways, for instance in his intelligence and culture, but he was also cruel, vindictive and authoritarian. Education -- despite what some Rousseauian philosophers may say about everyone being good by nature -- never guarantees that a person may be exemplary in his dealings with others: for instance, a great part of German society in the 1930's was one of the most cultured in Europe, and yet ended up voting for Hitler.

    Charlemagne's qualifications for "father of Europe" came in 799, and it responded more to vanity and political prestige than anything else. His intention, quite simply, was to rebuild the Western Roman Empire, not a united Europe stretching from Finland to Portugal with a utopical incorporation of Al-Andalus in an Alliance of Civilizations avant la lettre.

    The great lows of Charlemagne's biography -- which are usually silenced in pan-Europeanist discourse -- are, for instance, that French nationalism in the 19th century had already grabbed him for use as father of the Franks, the Regnum Francorum, or that the fact that he is so idealized ignores the fact that his entire work crumbled apart after his death. In the year 775, for instance, he launched a punitive expedition against the Saxons which nowadays would be considered a real genocide.

    Charlemagne was a statesmen who intended to secure Carolingian provinces through a system of Marches which would give place, for instance, to the counties of Catalonia. It would be better to say that Charlemagne was the father of Catalonia, or even Andorra, than of Europe, which is far too pretentious.

    It is rather sad to have to hear such nonsense such as that Charlemagne was a pionneer in the Bologna process by creating a "curriculum" in 790, assertion which was made by Stefano Maria Cingolani no less. With all due respect to Mr. Cingolani, who happens to be a great scholar on the times, the comparison is absurd.

    One thing is Alcuin of York's reform which allowed the promotion of Romance languges or to give shape to the Imperial Chancelorship, and the 21st century Bologna process, which is a nebulous, confused thing which has caused an enormous stink among students, scholars and academics throughout the continent, is quite another.

    Charlemagne never reached Ireland or Sweden, which are now part of the EU, and it is even surprising that he should unite lands such as Saxony where he performed a frightening genocide. Let us add that both Napoleon and Hitler inspired themselves from Charlemagne when it came to forging their empires. For Napoleon, Charlemagne was the father of the French nation, but Hitler considered him as a Germanic chieftain who submitted Central and Eastern Europe.

    Another sample of this ridiculous Charlemagnian current is the creation of the Karlspreis -- Charlemagne prize. It's so unintentionally funny, I'd die laughing. Especially looking back at the EU's track record when it comes to contest, which have ended up degenerating in the supernatural, revolting and grotesque display of peasantry which is the Eurovision festival, manipulated by Eastern European countries which vote each other, or the European Film Awards -- anyone know they exist? -- a cheap and little-known copy of the Oscars ceremony in Hollywood, given by the European Film Academy.

    Anyhow, the Karlspreis is given by the city of Aachen ever since 1950 to all those who "have worked in favor of European unification". It all started in 1949, when Kurt Pfeiffer proposed his prize to a cultural group called "Corona Legentivm Aqvensis". Symbolically speaking, the prize is a medal with Charlemagne's bust on it -- he kept his court at Aachen -- a certificate, and a juicy 5000 euro check. Among the happy winners of the prize are the Pope John Paul II, the European Commission (eh??), king Juan Carlos I, Henry Kissinger, the people of Luxemburg, Tony Blair, Felipe Gonzáliez, Bill Clinton, Giscard d'Estaign... Let's conclude by saying that they were people, to say the least, of dubious merit in this field (And how the hell did the Commission get a prize?). And in 1980, there was no winner at all. No-one knows why...

    Now, the most ridiculous thing of all was giving the 2002 Karlspreis, no less, to the Euro (WHAT?!?). How the bloody hell can a currency receive a prize?!? Well, in any case, it seems it's possible. But let's not imagine that the British pound or the Swiss frank will ever get a Karlspreis.

    Charlemagne, rather than the father, was the stepfather of what now is the EU.
    Last edited by Lance-Corporal Jones; June 13, 2009 at 03:51 AM.

  2. #2
    Angrychris's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: The stepfather of Europe

    Sold eastern europeans -Slav(e)'s into slavery as exports also. There are usualy more bad then good decisions/actions in a leaders portfolio but once in awhile you'll be fortunate to live to see someone with a 50/50 track record.

    Leave it to the modder to perfect the works of the paid developers for no profit at all.

  3. #3

    Default Re: The stepfather of Europe

    Thanks for the note, Angrychris. I also forgot to mention the number one reason unifying element in Charlemagne's empire -- christianity. In fact, during the Middle Ages, what nowadays is being a citizen was being a christian; this also accounts for the power of excommunication. It was an "us" versus "them" scenario.

  4. #4

    Default Re: The stepfather of Europe

    Speaking as a Briton - bit odd. We were sort of busy fighting Vikings.

  5. #5

    Default Re: The stepfather of Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Speaking as a Briton - bit odd. We were sort of busy fighting Vikings.
    And each other.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The stepfather of Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Speaking as a Briton - bit odd. We were sort of busy fighting Vikings.
    Can't expect Eurocrats to be logical mate. They'll twist the truth until it fits 'em.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The stepfather of Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Kleber View Post
    Can't expect Eurocrats to be logical mate. They'll twist the truth until it fits 'em.
    And Eurosceptics don't?

  8. #8
    Deep_Red's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: The stepfather of Europe

    Good points, Kleber.
    Another thing that bothers me: Does the CIS give out a Genghis Khan prize?

    "Every state is founded on violence."
    "Stalin is the grave digger of the revolution."
    -Leon Trotsky


  9. #9

    Default Re: The stepfather of Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Deep_Red View Post
    Good points, Kleber.
    Another thing that bothers me: Does the CIS give out a Genghis Khan prize?
    Good one! It's like suggesting the Commonwealth should give out a Clive of India prize or a Lord Kitchener prize...

  10. #10
    Darsh's Avatar Maréchal de l'Empire
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    Default Re: The stepfather of Europe

    Well, we'll unite to form the New Charlemagne Empire.

    Légion étrangère : « Honneur et Fidélité »

  11. #11

    Default Re: The stepfather of Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Darsh View Post
    Well, we'll unite to form the New Charlemagne Empire.
    Will it also have its share of genocide, slavery, autocracy, expansionim?

    The only good thing about a New Charlemagne Empire, as you say, is that it would probably crumble just as quickly.

    Furthermore, as a Frenchman, you find it rather easy to place yourself under Charlemagne, ce fils de Pépin le Bref as you say... Just as with Napoleon, for that matter. What about countries that are completely indifferent to these historical figures?

  12. #12
    Darsh's Avatar Maréchal de l'Empire
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    Default Re: The stepfather of Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Kleber View Post
    Will it also have its share of genocide, slavery, autocracy, expansionim?

    The only good thing about a New Charlemagne Empire, as you say, is that it would probably crumble just as quickly.

    Furthermore, as a Frenchman, you find it rather easy to place yourself under Charlemagne, ce fils de Pépin le Bref as you say... Just as with Napoleon, for that matter. What about countries that are completely indifferent to these historical figures?
    Except that EU isn't "an Empire" but more a confederation of Nations. This comparison with Charlemagne's Empire is broken even if I like this "image d'Epinale".
    EU was build on laws and peace instead of wars and violence. EU has permited to developp greatly the economies of european nations. Perhaps the system has a lot of flaws but we could improve it, to make it more efficient, less bureaucratic and EU represent the chance for the EU nations to bring their voices and defend their interests on the international scene.

    Charlemagne's Empire is the past, EU is the futur.

    Légion étrangère : « Honneur et Fidélité »

  13. #13

    Default Re: The stepfather of Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Darsh View Post
    Except that EU isn't "an Empire" but more a confederation of Nations. This comparison with Charlemagne's Empire is broken even if I like this "image d'Epinale".
    EU was build on laws and peace instead of wars and violence. EU has permited to developp greatly the economies of european nations. Perhaps the system has a lot of flaws but we could improve it, to make it more efficient, less bureaucratic and EU represent the chance for the EU nations to bring their voices and defend their interests on the international scene.

    Charlemagne's Empire is the past, EU is the futur.
    Tell that to the Europhiles who constantly invoke Charlemagne. Maybe if the Euro hadn't received a Karlspreis they would be innocent of the Charlemagnisation, to so speak. The comparison is not mine, it's theirs.

  14. #14

    Default Re: The stepfather of Europe

    It's equally silly to pretend that Hitler and Napoleon were the pre-runners of the Eurocrats and that supporting the formation of a European state immediatly means that you're a Nazi or Jacobin.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  15. #15

    Default Re: The stepfather of Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    It's equally silly to pretend that Hitler and Napoleon were the pre-runners of the Eurocrats and that supporting the formation of a European state immediatly means that you're a Nazi or Jacobin.
    I quote from my own text:

    It's obvious that the first unifiers of what is now the greater part of the EU were, quite simply, Napoleon and Hitler, both of them strongmen who got there by flexing military muscle. In any case, characters which aren't that worthy of the European "peace" and "solidarity" which Brussels chants so enthusiastically.
    I think careful reading of this paragraph will reveal that you have misinterpreted me.

  16. #16

    Default Re: The stepfather of Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Kleber View Post
    I quote from my own text:



    I think careful reading of this paragraph will reveal that you have misinterpreted me.
    It was no necessarily aimed at you but it seems to be a common though amongst the anti-Eu crowd.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  17. #17

    Default Re: The stepfather of Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    It was no necessarily aimed at you but it seems to be a common though amongst the anti-Eu crowd.
    You are correct, althought the pro-EU crowd also flings quite a few nazi/fascist accusations.

  18. #18

    Default Re: The stepfather of Europe

    And Eurosceptics don't?
    All I do in this article is untwist the twisted story of Charlemagne. Eurocrats can be expected to construct historical arguments as they have the need to defend an idea of "Europe" which is built on hot air. Eurosceptics, relying upon the status quo, don't need to fabricate historical tales.
    Last edited by Lance-Corporal Jones; June 13, 2009 at 10:03 AM.

  19. #19
    Centenarius
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    Default Re: The stepfather of Europe

    Any political institution or ideology and nations in particular are just as guilty as misrepresenting historical figures and facts to suit their own ends. So while you may be right to criticise the use of Charlemange, Kleber, I fail to see anything particularly profound about it. You clearly intend it as an attack on the legitimacy of integration, which I find rather meaningless as the politics of the day create the symbols, not the other way around (Incidentally, there have been hundreds of "plans" for a united "Europe" throughout history).

    Let's not forget the myth surrounding Europa herself, a charming business.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kleber View Post
    Eurosceptics, relying upon the status quo, don't need to fabricate historical tales.

  20. #20
    Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The stepfather of Europe

    @Kleber

    All I do in this article is untwist the twisted story of Charlemagne. Eurocrats can be expected to construct historical arguments as they have the need to defend an idea of "Europe"
    There are many "ideas of Europe". The Charlemagne history is just very placative and speaks to the mind, especially considering France and Germany's tradition of killing each other. I have no idea what you are trying to prove other than that you don't like the EU to be frank.
    Eurosceptics, relying upon the status quo, don't need to fabricate historical tales.
    Yeah right. Ive seen enough of the Eurosceptics these last years and in your OP to know thats just an Eurosceptic fantasy of yours.
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

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