Unit Stats?

[Vae victis]

I have been playing TW games for a long time now, since mtw1, and I never really understood the meanings of the unit stats on the unit cards. How can I tell how effective a unit will be vs an enemy unit. All that I look at now is total attack and defense stats. If my unit card dosent match my enemies then I can usually try to gang up on or outmanuver these better units. Lately these tactics have not been working for me so I am wondering if there is somthing I'm missing on the cards, or if the new 2hp system makes battles a little differant. What are the best things to look for on the unit card to determine if it can face offf against an enemy? What do all these stats mean, and how are they used in the battle? Thanks

[Publius Quirinus]

If the unit is a spear unit, it will do better against cavalry, but not so well against other infantry, particularly sword infantry. So Greek hoplites would probably do poorly against Roman principes, but do particularly well against cataphracts. There are other bonuses, such as peltasts having a combat bonus against chariots and elephants.

Also other things to consider are the relative values of shield, armour and defense skill-- sometimes a high overall defense may be a result of a high defense skill, so missiles will still cut them down easily. And shield values don't work if you're attacked on the right flank or the rear.

Command, other than having an effect on morale, also has an effect on stats, I think, which may also have been the cause.

EDIT: Um, sorry if that wasn't what you were asking.

[Zarax]

Hoplites are kind of a special case, IIRC they get a sword attack AND bonus against cavalry...

[Scutarii]

Well, look at the base defense and attack stats, then take into account formation (phalanx, hoplites have an unusually dense formation). Special stats like AP, BP, range etc... Its not rocket science. Some units are better at some things than others, like Falxes will beat armoured units but lose to some troops like Gallic Swordsmen, which are mostly unarmoured (Germania is easy to beat as Gaul since they can't really use the AP on their axemen).

Also other things to consider are the relative values of shield, armour and defense skill-- sometimes a high overall defense may be a result of a high defense skill, so missiles will still cut them down easily. And shield values don't work if you're attacked on the right flank or the rear.

Good advice. A unit might have high defense, but it might be a combination of high defense skill due + experience, so take them out with ranged troops.

[Vae victis]

What if you squre off a unit of hastati against a spear warband. The hastati will win because its a sword unit and it has better attack and defence. How do you defeat the hastati then if you only have spear warbands to work with? The unit wont rout when surrounded like in the other mods I have played. If you have 4 spear warbands attacking 1 hastati from all sides, the hastati will take out many spearmen, and may even win the battle. What in the hastatis unit card makes it so superior against 4 units of spear warband that have similar total attack and defence stats?

I am also wondering about unit mass. Are there any hidden attack/charge/defense bonuses for tightly packed formations when defending and charging? Does enabling schiltrom/sheild-wall change the unit defense stats? Thanks

[Scutarii]

Keep in mind the warband have lower morale than the hastati, have the -4 attack penalty, and have far lower morale. They're also impetuous, meaning they start off with decent morale, but lose it very quickly (hence the mass routs by the Gauls when they're leader dies..). In campaign, Hastati have higher base stats added to all that, plus the Romans get an exp bonus from the monument, and are very liberal about building the temple of Mars, so troops can be churned out of Rome with +3 (or +4 with full bonuses) experience. Thats more attack, defense and morale...

Closer formations don't have any hidden bonus stats, its all common sense. A tighter formation allows more swords/spears to concentrate on fewer targets, meaning more hits and less hits against.

Spears reflect cavaly charges if they're 'ready'. Shield wall just makes the formation really dense, schiltrom will reflect cavalry charges on all sides rather than just the front. Its useless, really.

[Publius Quirinus]

About the spear warband vs hastati example, have you tried activating warcry on your warbands first before charging? It gives a considerable attack bonus (+5 or +10, I think) for 30 seconds, which can really make a difference especially when fighting superior-quality units.

I think the shield wall provides a defense bonus? It's basically a phalanx without the offense bonus, iirc. I'm not sure if the schiltrom provides a stat bonus, it just protects all the flanks at the cost of mobility.

Hoplites are kind of a special case, IIRC they get a sword attack AND bonus against cavalry...

That's interesting, how is it done? Do units like thureophoroi or thorakitai get this perk as well?

[Subrosa Florens]

That's interesting, how is it done? Do units like thureophoroi or thorakitai get this perk as well?

What he means is they have a spear for a primary weapon, which of course has a bonus against cavalry. But they also have a sword as a sidearm, so they can draw that to fight against other troops.

[Vae victis]

What is the -4 attack on the spear warband vs hastati for. Is it a spears vs swords penalty?

I use warcry as much as I can. It doesnt work as well with units at two hp, and it doesnt seem to last long enough. Lol, I've seen battles where the enemy moves its whole army to avoid having my warbands attack them after I have used my warcry. I move my units adjacent to the enemy, do my warcry, and the enemy moves again.

What I have seen in my spear warband vs hastati battles remind me of what a group of soilders trying to attack a tank with a hammer would look like. Even on medium battle diificulty, I take a lot of damage. I wonder if I take more damage because warbands have a high defense skill, but a low sheild? Maybe when units are bunched together, in a fight, it is harder to dodge sword blows?

[Scutarii]

You'll take lots of damage because you're using warbands. They're the lowest of the low barbarian units... Swordsmen are cheap, readily available, and 10 times better, especially against infantry.

What he means is they have a spear for a primary weapon, which of course has a bonus against cavalry. But they also have a sword as a sidearm, so they can draw that to fight against other troops.

Actually, hoplites only have the one spear weapon. Having two melee weapons with infantry is pretty buggy... Zarax could have meant the hoplites have sword attack stats, but use a spear, and so get the bonus against cavalry, but I'm not completely sure.

[Subrosa Florens]

Actually, hoplites only have the one spear weapon. Having two melee weapons with infantry is pretty buggy... Zarax could have meant the hoplites have sword attack stats, but use a spear, and so get the bonus against cavalry, but I'm not completely sure.

I removed all of the swords from hoplite units because of how buggy they are, drawing swords to charge in and attack, etc... But I thought they still had the swords as sidearms in XGM? Or maybe I am thinking of the Phalangites?

[Zarax]

Err, I meant sword lethality stats as opposed to spear ones, making them much more effective in dealing with infantry than "normal" spearmen

[Scutarii]

Hoplites don't, phalangites do... Hoplites never have in XGM, I'm pretty sure...

[Subrosa Florens]

I was probably thinking the phalangites then.

[DimeBagHo]

I've never made a unit that was non-phalanx spear/sword because of the odd weapon switching behaviour. Hoplites only use spears, but their stats reflect the fact that historically they were also armed with swords.

Hoplites fall somewhere in the middle of sword and spear units. They are more effective against cavalry than sword only units, but not as good as spear only units. They are more effective against infantry than spear only units, but not as good as sword only units. They are also more sensitive to terrain as they suffer penalties in scrub and forest.

[Lobo Solitario]

Comparing base attack/defence values is a good start, but keep the following in mind:

-Defence skill only affects melee. Specifically attacks from the front/right.
-Shield skill affects melee and ranged. Specifically attacks from the front/left. Double value against ranged attacks from the front.
-Armour value affects all attacks from all directions. Halved against armour piercing (AP) units (normally axes, falxes and javelins).
-Spear units have a +8 attack bonus against cavalry and a -4 attack penalty against infantry.
-Lethality values (from EDU):
One handed: 1.0
Two handed: 0.85
Berserker: 1.0
Hoplite: 1.0
Pike: 0.65
Spear: 0.85
Cavalry: 0.8
Chariot: 1.0

From this, (non-hoplite) spear-armed units will be less effective killers in melee than other melee units with equivalent attack stats. Hoplite units appear to be a special exception, although they should still suffer from the same attack bonuses/penalties as other spear units.

[DimeBagHo]

The lethality values are a little more complicated. Some animations are more effective in combat than others. In particular the spear animations get more "hits" than the sword animations. So with a lethality of 0.85 the spear units are just as effective as the sword units with a lethality of 1.0.

Spear bonuses are also a little more complicated. The "spear" attribute gives a +8/-4 attack bonus against cavalry/infantry, but it isn't used much in XGM because of the over-powered pushing effect that it creates. Instead most spear units get the "light_spear" attribute which gives a +8/-4 defense bonus against cavalry/infantry.

Take a look here for more of the details: http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=88859

[Scutarii]

They'd probably have AP too (falxmen, double-handed axemen). Lethality probably is just compensating for that, and a high attack value for those two units.

[DimeBagHo]

Lobo Solitario: The two-handed animation would be balanced at about 0.78, so at 0.85 (the XGM setting) it is a little more effective than some other animations.