Best way to beat an elite unit?

[Vae victis]

I am having trouble breaking and beating elite units on the battlefield. I use tactics and have the unit attacked and surrounded from all sides, and it still doesent break. Even if its general is killed, and all the rest of their army is routing, these soilders dont break and continue to fight on. The problem with this is that these elite units continue to fight and chew up the best I have to offer. Is there a better way to rout these guys before they cut up my army? In reality how could an encircled unit continue to fight on and inflict so much damage?

[A Very Super Market]

Well, they're surrounded. No way out, so they fight to the death. Elite units will sometimes do this without getting surrounded, and even basic battle infantry will do so when surrounded. Mainly because it they see no hope of escape, they may as well died dignified.

[Vae victis]

Yeah, but this is before they break and fight to the death. I surround them to break them, and then once they break they will fight me to the death. Is there a better way to break these elite units with only mediocre troops and without taking terrible losses?

[CaesarVincens]

Cavalry charges from the rear, missile fire (especially fire arrows) from the rear. One unit of slingers will destroy most units given a back to fire upon.

[Spartan198]

Another elite unit?

[Garet Jax]

Another elite unit?

SPAARTAANS!!! Prepare for Glory
...or you could send in some Trolls...

[Spartan198]

...or you could send in some Trolls...

Are you implying something?

[A Very Super Market]

Well, if you don't have any cavalry, you will need to have some specialized infantry (An elite of your own, I guess) to charge them in the back and take as many of them out as possible at once.

[Scutarii]

1) match them up with your elites)
2) pin and cavalry charge, the pinning unit can be crappy...
3) pin and missile fire (slingers, jav cav both work well.
4) surround them and hope you win

[Vae victis]

Thanks for the tips. I will try these tactics to see if they work better than surrounding the unit. I will have to watch battles more closely too, to see who these elites square off against. I have not been hiring as many missle units because of their reduced damage to the enemies 2hp front. Maybe I shold hire some to flank the enemy and fire from behind. I will try some more cavalry charges too.

I think the main problem too, is that these elite units have awesome morale in this mod. They refuse to break when attacked from all sides and you have to resort to cheap missle tactics to break them when you dont have superior units of your own. I am still amazad at how many units they can take out before breaking. I am not sure if this is realistic or not. What do you guys think?

[Subrosa Florens]

I think the main problem too, is that these elite units have awesome morale in this mod. They refuse to break when attacked from all sides and you have to resort to cheap missle tactics to break them when you dont have superior units of your own. I am still amazad at how many units they can take out before breaking. I am not sure if this is realistic or not. What do you guys think?

I have come back to playing XGM after over a year's hiatus, and have seen the same thing. The elite units usually have a morale of 30. So doing things like flanking and charging them from behind has no effect. Especially with cavalry, as they have been reduced in potency. Missile weapons have no effect on them because of their high armour. So battles against them are just grinding slug-fests.

What I have tried to do is to concentrate on taking out the rest of the enemy's army first, while keeping the elite units busy chewing up two or three of my best infantry units. The upside of everybody having high morale is your own troops will not run away even after losing three-quarters of their men either.

Once you knock out the rest of the enemy army, bring all your people over and gang up on the enemy elites. Bring your general in close to add his command bonus. But not so close that he is in the fight, otherwise he is going to get killed. Then just click on 3x speed and wait until you eventually kill them all.

Historically, armies broke once their line was pierced or they were flanked. Even the most veteran troops will run under those circumstances. Because they know the battle was lost and standing and fighting meant dying, and very few soldiers really want to die.

There were a few units that did stand, fight to the bitter end, and die under those circumstances. The Theban Sacred Band at Chaeronea for example, or the Spartan Royal Guard at Thermopylae. They are pretty rare though.

[Vae victis]

@_Lacedaemonian_: I cant imagine how you can win a fair fight with vh battles. Lol, I am playing on medium and having problems. In vh, all enemy units are elite. When you charge your units at the enemy they bounce off and die very quickly without doing much damage.

@Subrosa Florens: My point exactly. Battles become slugfests and they hurt when you have inferior units. These elite units are the last men standing, and they dont go without a fight. When I fight them, I am reminded of the battle where Boudica fought the Romans. She kept hurling her warriors at an enemy that didn't break. The small amount of Romans killed very many rebel Britons.

I guess what would help me now is if I lower the campaign difficulty setting. In the campaign I can only afford to fight in one slugfest battle before I have to send that stack home to retrain. If I keep fighting I will lose the stack. If I send my stack home, I will lose the province. Lowering the campaign difficulty will hopefully reduce the elite units that I have to fight against.

[_Lacedaemonian_]

Elite units can be quit a pain in the a** Vae Victis! Especially in the very early stages of your campaign. Check out my screenshots: As you can see I am at a very difficult point in my VH/VH seleucid campaign!
I consider myself a very experienced XGM player but I cannot understand the fact that Seleucid Empire is the ONLY faction that can't recruit decent infantry EARLY in the game. They are the strongest of the succesor kingdoms yet the don't have any decent baracks in their major cities(Antioch/Seleucia). EVERYONE wants a piece of their lands so no chance for early alliances with neighbouring kingdoms. Although a few turns later I managed to survive and push those Pontic and Armenian scum back to their wastelands these barbarians can recruit catas and elite kardakes spearmen in every city! And now I'm facing a major Bactrian/Parthian invasion! But I guess managing a huge state is much more difficult that forming one!

screenshots:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Scutarii]

Lower campaign difficulty = less money for AI. Try Camp difficulty on medium, then they only get the XGM monument bonuses.

[Vae victis]

Its gotta be insane for people who play on 2hp vh/vh. It might be fun, but I dont think that you will be able to meet the victory conditions, even as a nation that has better units.

[Subrosa Florens]

What I did was lower the morale of all units by one quarter, and reduced the size of the non phalanx infantry units back to a base of 40 instead of 50 (excepting the 60 size entry level garrison units). That, and putting cavalry back up to a base of 27 has made battles go more sanely. The enemy stills puts up a fight, but flanking actually works now.

[_Lacedaemonian_]

@ Vae victis: Nah, it's not insane, it's just long time playability After all you don't want your game to finish in the first 30 years! That's why I prefer the Seleucid Empire----> "where no peace happens" .It's been early in the game (260 bc) and I have already fought 124 battles (won 87/lost 37/only 10 naval battles)
As I stated before although I managed to recover my economy, things far from "peace and quiet):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

PS1: My only elite units are syrian archers and general's bodyguards.
PS2: Those ultra magnificent strat-map textures are due to my IBFD mod installation

[Vae victis]

Cool screenshots. On vh almost all the units you meet are elite with +8 stats. You must take massive casulties beating each and every unit. Are you using 2hp like everyone else?

I see your strategy. You pin the enemy in place and attack them from behind with all of your generals bodygaurd. I will have to try doing more of that. Its still amazing winning all of those battles though.


@Subrosa Florens: Thanks for the tips. Seems like a lot of work and I am a noob in those matters. Lol, maybe I will just keep things as they are, continue to play on medium, but without as much complaining. If there are people playing on vh, then I should have no sweat on medium.

[Lobo Solitario]

If the unit does eventually break and gets the "fighting to the death" status, you need to leave them a way to escape so that they will rout as normal - high morale units with no escape route will fight to the last man. I generally pin them with a few infantry units until the battle is under control and then pull back the unit attacking their rear to hit them with a massed cavalry charge from the rear, pulling the cavalry back after a couple of seconds. This normally results in a rout for me.

[Scutarii]

Unless they're a phalanx unit, I let them fight to the death... It seems only the units with phalanx formation actually cause casualties when fighting to the death, the other ones just die like normal routers, but they're trapped...