A Curiosity of Nationality

[Ciabhán]

Alright so I am not sure if this is the proper forum for the question but the mods can move it if they so choose.

I am curious as to the reason that so many Yanks in particular and folks in other former colonies 'want' to be Irish. Coming from our blighted little Isle I have always been confounded as to the reasons for that. I have spent many years in the States and it seems to me that the romantiscism of our past calls to certain people. That being said it also appears that the oppression that many Irish emigrants faced in other lands leads people to use the claim of Irishness as a way to distinguish themselves from those around them in the same manner that black Americans sometimes claim to be African or later generations claim to be Polish, Greek, Russian, French, etc. Is there something deep within the psyche of a melting pot country that makes people want to somehow be different from the rest and in doing become like so many others?

[Yorkshireman]

I think thats what it is, coming from a melting pot country, many different immigrant groups, I think its fairly unique in that way. Though I'm sure its somewhat the same in places like Oz etc. Where as here in Europe for most people at least your heritage is normally pretty constant. For example where I live everybody is more or less born in Yorkshire or England for generations or at least within the British Isles/Ireland. So here being Irish/Scottish etc is'nt unusual. I watched a program recently with Billy Connelly travelling around Canada, he attended a Scottish/clan day somewhere in Nova Scotia. He was very amused and said he'd never seen so much tartan or so many bagpipes in his life.

(I could be Irish if I wanted ! I'm entitled to an Irish passport through my Belfast mother. I'd just get laughed at over here though and called a plastiv Paddy )

[Ciabhán]

I watched a program recently with Billy Connelly travelling around Canada, he attended a Scottish/clan day somewhere in Nova Scotia. He was very amused and said he'd never seen so much tartan or so many bagpipes in his life.

Actually that is what raised the question for me. I am currently in the States for a few months with my wife's extended family and I was asked by an acquaintence to attend a 'Celtic' festival. This fella's family has been in the States for near 200 years and are of German extraction, he has one relative 100 years or so ago from somewhere in Leitrim and he is "Irish" by his admission. Plastic Paddyness is widespread and doesn't bother me but I still don't understand why people try so hard to connect themselves to us.

@Markas: Seems to me that all those folks who want to pretend to it on the internet are of the same variety only with even shakier claims so their reasons would be near the same as those you meet in real life.

[6th Vigil]

I think thats what it is, coming from a melting pot country, many different immigrant groups, I think its fairly unique in that way. Though I'm sure its somewhat the same in places like Oz etc. Where as here in Europe for most people at least your heritage is normally pretty constant. For example where I live everybody is more or less born in Yorkshire or England for generations or at least within the British Isles/Ireland. So here being Irish/Scottish etc is'nt unusual. I watched a program recently with Billy Connelly travelling around Canada, he attended a Scottish/clan day somewhere in Nova Scotia. He was very amused and said he'd never seen so much tartan or so many bagpipes in his life.

I would agree with Yorkshireman. I myself have some Welsh, Scottish and even some irish heritage far back and my parents also have mixed backgrounds from around the UK. But i've lived in England all my life so I'm English. It's as simple as that really.

And people really do get ridiculed for being plastic whatever over here!!

[Ó Cathasaigh]

I wouldn't call it a question of nationality, but one of ethnicity.

[Markas]

Well I often accuse people of being psuedo-nationalists and I usually ascribe it to either the young who feel they need to reinforce their sense of identity or those who just like to pretend on the internet. In real life I have no idea why people do it. Romanticism is likely the culprit.

[Lord de Lyonesse]

Im sure it has something to do with romaticism over the subject, i have cousins who have a fervour for englishness and indeed Britishness even though they are native to canada and australia, i guess it could be with heritage and respecting your roots, i never had to deal with this issue really as most of my immediete family reside within Cornwall =]

[Ó Cathasaigh]

In what terms did this guy (German as you said) describe himself?

Did he say "Part Irish" or simply "yeah...I'm Irish" or did he list off what he was, like "German, Welsh, Irish...."

You'll get all kinds of different descriptions of ones ethnicity or family background. Hyphenated Americans are also an example. I think Yorkshire's on the right track with his explanation of the melting pot society, I'd describe it as a tossed salad actually. I'd like to correct you however, not "some" black people but nearly all black people claim to be African-American, as is their right.

I'm curious as to if you're hostile to these claims or just intrigued?

[Chlodwig I.]

Mayby these people feel the need to be something special.

somehow it seems for many people it sounds "better" or "exotic" if they can say,
"I'm a part Irish, Navajo, Spanish and Betazoid"

then just "I'm Austrian"
or "I'm English"

[Ciabhán]

In what terms did this guy (German as you said) describe himself?

Did he say "Part Irish" or simply "yeah...I'm Irish" or did he list off what he was, like "German, Welsh, Irish...."

You'll get all kinds of different descriptions of ones ethnicity or family background. Hyphenated Americans are also an example. I think Yorkshire's on the right track with his explanation of the melting pot society, I'd describe it as a tossed salad actually. I'd like to correct you however, not "some" black people but nearly all black people claim to be African-American, as is their right.

I'm curious as to if you're hostile to these claims or just intrigued?

He according to himself is Irish. Not Irish-American, not sort of Irish, not Irish and mixed, not a bloody mongrel, just Irish.

African-Americans at least in my book are the ones who are naturalised in the States and maybe 1st generation. After that you are just American. Unless of course all Americans are some kind of hyphenated ethnicity.

When I am in the States there is a particular pub I frequent owned by an expat Englishman. He shows all the BPL, SPL, FAI, and as many European matches as he can on his tellys and has a decent selection of imported drink. The combination draws a large group of expats from around the Isles, Europe, and other parts of the world. A fella I know from that pub, sadly a bloody Frog but it cannot be helped , who is of North African extraction actually takes offense to being called African-American as he is neither African nor American. That term is almost as offensive to some as the terms it is used to replace.

I am not offended by the claims, I may have once been when I first visited the States though. I just sometimes wonder what makes people tick.

[Farnan]

You've lived here. We're a young country, only two hundred years old. No American ever fought a dragon. Thus we use our ancestor's history in Europe to sort of give ourselves a longer history. Am I making sense?

[Ciabhán]

You've lived here. We're a young country, only two hundred years old. No American ever fought a dragon. Thus we use our ancestor's history in Europe to sort of give ourselves a longer history. Am I making sense?

Yes and no. I understand the finding of ones roots and all that. What I don't understand are the Celtophiles, Anglophiles, and etcphiles that try so bloody hard to be something besides American.

[Ó Cathasaigh]

Yes and no. I understand the finding of ones roots and all that. What I don't understand are the Celtophiles, Anglophiles, and etcphiles that try so bloody hard to be something besides American.

Because American is not an ethnicity. It's a nationality though. We didn't originate here, we came from other places and we identify with those places. That's about the best explanation I can come up with. Claiming "I'm Irish" gets under my skin a bit, because it's not accurate. I'd prefer I'm "Irish-American" "part Irish" and that kind of thing, and I see where you're coming from on that guy. However I see nothing wrong with being aware of your history and identifying with people who you descend from.

[magickyleo101]

The prevalence of the phenomena depends pretty heavily on where in America you are. I think you're far more likely to see people claiming to be "X-ish" in regions to which people from X-land directly migrated (e.g. Boston) than the regions in which their descendants eventually settled (e.g. California or Texas).

Also, it's important to note that American concepts of race and ethnicity are malleable, complex, and incoherent. A good example of this is what's sometimes called the "one-drop" rule. Under (the really strict version of) the one drop-rule, a person is black if they have any black ancestor, no matter how many of their other ancestors are white. Asymmetricaly, however, having a single white ancestor isn't enough to make a person white. Rather, all of the person's ancestor's must have been white in order for that person to count as white. (The strict version of the rule, as well as the name, come from a Louisiana statute in the late 19th century. Obviously people aren't that strict about it as the statute was, but the rule's still a pretty good predictor of the way Americans talk).

The way people talk about President Obama is a pretty good illustration of this: He's described as the first black president but he's not considered a white president, despite the fact that that one of his parents was white and the other black. So having one black parent is enough for Obama to be considered black, but having one white parent isn't enough to have Obama be considered white.

The same thing, I think, is going on with the Irish example. People call themselves "Irish" or "Italian" despite the fact that they've never left New Jersey and their only Irish relative is four generations removed, and in doing so they're applying something similar to the one drop rule. Yeah, it's incoherent, but that's how all talk about race and ethnicity in a melting pot country tends to be.

[Karoliner]

Alright so I am not sure if this is the proper forum for the question but the mods can move it if they so choose.

I am curious as to the reason that so many Yanks in particular and folks in other former colonies 'want' to be Irish. Coming from our blighted little Isle I have always been confounded as to the reasons for that. I have spent many years in the States and it seems to me that the romantiscism of our past calls to certain people. That being said it also appears that the oppression that many Irish emigrants faced in other lands leads people to use the claim of Irishness as a way to distinguish themselves from those around them in the same manner that black Americans sometimes claim to be African or later generations claim to be Polish, Greek, Russian, French, etc. Is there something deep within the psyche of a melting pot country that makes people want to somehow be different from the rest and in doing become like so many others?

Simple, the melting pot. With so many various religions, ethnicities and nationalities, many people strive for an image that they can relate to, and relate to other pople. For example, I am an American of Swedish decent. My great-grandfather moved to this country at the turn of the centry. I still feel a cultural connection to my "Fatherland". Many Mexicans in San Diego feel a connection to Mexico. It's all about cultural identity.

[chamaeleo]

As an American, it's so much easier to pick one favorite ethnicity and go with it than tally off an exhaustive list. When people ask me, I usually go with "mongrel", but I do love a good Stout so if I were drunk I might blurt out a bit o' Blarney...