Capitalism and Christianity, diametrically opposed?

[Amorphos]

Capitalism and Christianity, diametrically opposed?

I think anarchism and socialism etc arose to some degree from christian thinking albeit in a vague way. Equally then may have come from ancient commune social structures previous to Christianity ~ the best of both one could say. The nuclear family arose from Christianity, and is opposed to the original commune living style, but utilises it in a different way.

Anyway, on to the crux of the matter; the ethics of giving and sharing fairly…

‘to give in order to receive is not a gift but an exchange’ [quetz]

‘To exchange in order to receive more than is given, is theft’ [quetz]

As you all know I am no christian, however elements of it are naturally within my psyche, and some of it I admire. The first saying above is my way of enveloping the essentially christian notion of giving for its own sake, I doubt if it didn’t occur before abrahamic religions, yet one would think it was not a major underlying philosophy prior to that.

Is Christianity the opposite of capitalism, especially as concerns this way of thinking?

What does this tell us about capitalism? Is ‘evil’? is a necessary evil to Christian capitalists.

Has Christianity been misrepresented by power mongers since its inception!_?

[Serious Spamurai]

I would say certain elements clash, but it doesn't appear to promote state ownership of businesses or certain other socialist-type policies. I would say Christianity is more of a free system, by all means hoard your wealth, but you'll go to hell, socialism will have you sent to prison for not paying taxes.

[Amorphos]

Yeah it seams to be equally against both socialism and capitalism, so apart from all the religious stuff I think I like it for this reason.

[Ummon]

Capitalism is incompatible with christianity, but imposed socialism is as well. A real Christian wouldn't pursue profit, based on historical examples.

[Amorphos]

It is very idealistic, yet far better to work from/too than capitalist ideals, which seam only to point at taking as much as you can from other people.

[Lord de Lyonesse]

I dont think religion itself shouldn't be embroiled into political methods and ways for what you get is mostly extremism and hate.. something which wasnt what the religions of the world wanted to bring about.

However i know it is a neccessary step for religions to take for if they do not they face the threat of oblivion by simply not being part of a solid society.. i dont really know how to answer this question in the time i have but i could if had more time =]

[Amorphos]

I dont think religion itself shouldn't be embroiled into political methods and ways for what you get is mostly extremism and hate.. something which wasnt what the religions of the world wanted to bring about.

Politics is human and has to embrace everything that entails. Extremism and hate can be dealt with in their own context. So yes they have to embrace each other or one make the other extinct ~ which will never happen.

[The Dude]

From what I know it's mostly incompatible with Catholicism. The way I've been taught is that we saw a rise of free trade in protestant regions of Europe after 1527 while Catholic regions were left behind.

[Ummon]

From what I know it's mostly incompatible with Catholicism. The way I've been taught is that we saw a rise of free trade in protestant regions of Europe after 1527 while Catholic regions were left behind.

You mean, like France? Austria-Hungary?

[The Dude]

You mean, like France? Austria-Hungary?

I have no idea man. I'm just saying that that's what I've been taught. If there's room to correct me then by all means do so instead of posting facepalm smilies. Exceptionally high quality post as usual, Ummon.

[Denny Crane!]

The state and christianity seem to go hand in hand.

Anarchism is diametrically opposed to it (at least in the forms I am familiar with) though I don't see any reason why capatilism should be, since it is possible to be an ethical capatilist and as far as I can identify with christian morals they aren't incompatible.

[Aldgarkalaughskel]

Christianity - in its original meaning - doesn't have a firm standing on opposing or supporting Capitalism as we know it today. Sure, there are bunch of people who like to quote from the New Testament, and will be soon encountered by other bunch of guys who will quote from other parts of the same book to say the total opposite, for example that Jesus encouraged the accumulation of wealth. Christianity teaches that you should focus your life on the spirituality and morality, but there's nothing wrong with money gained in good faith and distributed among others who need it badly. To be charitable, you either have to be Jesus and feed the crowd out of 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish or be wealthy, which presumes accepting the principles of capitalism. To say the least, Christianity and Capitalism are not mutually exclusive. Capitalism in its wild format, has to be regulated though, and this is where the teachings of Jesus come to play.

[Ummon]

Synthesis for: the theory that capitalism is connected with protestant entrepreneurism and calvinist predestination concepts certainly contains a grain of truth, but a grain of truth (a correlation) is not a cause-effect relationship. Quality is in the beholder's ability to decode, as well.

[Amorphos]

Anarchism is diametrically opposed to it

It is yet from what I can tell some of the early anarchists were christian, the property is theft thing seams christian to me?

though I don't see any reason why capatilism should be, since it is possible to be an ethical capatilist and as far as I can identify with christian morals they aren't incompatible

An ethical capitalist? For your average worker maybe, the capitalist system is; 1, a master that isn’t god! and 2, a way for the minority to possess more than its fair share of earned moneys.

__________________________

To be charitable, you either have to be Jesus and feed the crowd out of 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish or be wealthy, which presumes accepting the principles of capitalism.

Or be a cooperative and use profits to serve the people/members of that. I don’t see how drawing moneys from the masses to make yourself rich, then to give a small portion as charity is ethical? Esp in christian terms [eye of the needle]. in this i would go with socialism as nearer even if not true to the cause.

[Denny Crane!]

It is yet from what I can tell some of the early anarchists were christian, the property is theft thing seams christian to me?

Completely abhorrent ideal to any of the forms of anarchism I am familiar with which are all based around rights and property rights.

An ethical capitalist? For your average worker maybe, the capitalist system is; 1, a master that isn’t god! and 2, a way for the minority to possess more than its fair share of earned moneys.

__________________________

I disagree with that I think its the only way that wealth will ever get spread around more equally. Having a state redistribute resources promotes inequality seemingly odd as it is they achieve the opposite effect.


Or be a cooperative and use profits to serve the people/members of that. I don’t see how drawing moneys from the masses to make yourself rich, then to give a small portion as charity is ethical? Esp in christian terms [eye of the needle]. in this i would go with socialism as nearer even if not true to the cause.[/QUOTE]

[Ummon]

No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon” (Luke 16:9-13).

[Amorphos]

Exactly ummon! ..not that i think we should all be slaves, nor would a wiseman be a master [god-wise?], but i see the ethical value and perhaps it leads us on to further values [i dont think the process has ended as yet].

seneca

Completely abhorrent ideal to any of the forms of anarchism I am familiar with which are all based around rights and property rights

Really! ‘property is theft’ is pretty fundamental to anarchism in the circles I mix.

I disagree with that I think its the only way that wealth will ever get spread around more equally. Having a state redistribute resources promotes inequality seemingly odd as it is they achieve the opposite effect.

I think both are inefficient, but wealthy people tend to hang on to their money [esp the ones I know] and don’t distribute it very fairly. I mean buying yachts and gold trousers [pop star style extravagance], and maybe even sports cars etc, doesn’t help the economy too much. An efficient state would distribute it better and not be as ruthless, a peoples cooperative even moreso.

[Denny Crane!]

Exactly ummon! ..not that i think we should all be slaves, nor would a wiseman be a master [god-wise?], but i see the ethical value and perhaps it leads us on to further values [i dont think the process has ended as yet].

seneca


Really! ‘property is theft’ is pretty fundamental to anarchism in the circles I mix.

I would assume that is anarchosyndacilism state or workforce owned... everything with virtually no private property which is to my mind almost marxist.

I'm more mutualist/capatilistic in my anarchistic desires as its the only one I can see working if nothing else.

I think both are inefficient, but wealthy people tend to hang on to their money [esp the ones I know] and don’t distribute it very fairly. I mean buying yachts and gold trousers [pop star style extravagance], and maybe even sports cars etc, doesn’t help the economy too much. An efficient state would distribute it better and not be as ruthless, a peoples cooperative even moreso.

There is a place for the rich and poor in any vision of society as the only way to have a truly equal distribution of wealth is to achieve a system that would be 100% efficient in wealth distribution which is nonesense as you will never have 100% efficiency in anything and until you get to star trek type technology there will never be enough resources to go around.

Now in terms of efficiency there will never be such a thing as an efficient state I'm afraid its an oxymoron. States are by their very nature unproductive since they absorb productivity and redistribute the capital of that labour but in a reduced form and in its redistribution create apathy and unproductiveness hence its counterproductive results. There is evidence to suggest poverty and wealth were becoming more fair before the welfare state really kicked in, I'm going to try and find some links for that if I can.

Then there is the moral issue that the only way to redistribute wealth is to forcibly take it off people with violence. I don't really care how horrible it is that some people are rich and others poor, its just not right to rob the rich and give to the poor especially not when the handouts make things worse.

[FuZe]

Me: Communism is a beautiful idea, but in practice, it just doesn't work.
Friend from St Petersburg: Capitalism is a terrible idea, but in practice, it seems to work pretty well.

But lets be clear what we are talking about. When my friend says "capitalism", he really meant the idea of a "free market" with minimal state intervention. This may conflict with the Christian notion of "caring for the least of you" because if everyone acted only in their self-interest, the least of us would starve. But I still see room for a Christian free-marketeer to consider caring for the "least of us" as part of his spiritual well-being. (utility)

Capitalism, strictly speaking, is simply about debt; borrowing and investing. This idea appears to directly contradict some of Jesus' teachings as well as the Old Testament. Can one be a capitalist as well as a Christian? If he/she is a literalist, then probably not.

[Amorphos]

everything with virtually no private property which is to my mind almost marxist

Sounds ok to a degree, personally I think 'property is theft' mainly applies to land, as that cannot have an original owner. If we make something then it is ours or if we purchase something made imho that is. the notion is also an attitude.

There is a place for the rich and poor in any vision of society as the only way to have a truly equal distribution of wealth is to achieve a system that would be 100% efficient in wealth distribution which is nonesense as you will never have 100% efficiency in anything

There is never a perfection no, but we do continually make things better/fairer throughout history. Thus we may ask what would be the continuation of that betterment? I doubt if current capitalism can last post mass resource exhaustion, and if we do find a way it would include new ways to make cheap resources ~ star treck tech.

its just not right to rob the rich and give to the poor especially not when the handouts make things worse

don’t the rich rob the poor in order to become rich? Sure the current systems don’t help yet they can be improved, it’s the fat-cats that deserve it the most [wealth being taken away].
Personally I would only advocate more universally efficient systems.

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Capitalism, strictly speaking, is simply about debt; borrowing and investing.

Cooperativism can be just about investing by using shared resources I.e. the massive wealth accumulated by the greedy. Debt is a horrible thing, especially when it comes to people loosing their homes etc. the first thing a civilised society should provide is basic housing and food, but politics uses the negative potential as a threat, to make people work harder longer hours.