Scythians, Sarmatians, Bosporans - some basic ideas

[LucretiusTC]

Recently there were some discussions about the Scythians and Sarmatians. So if there are any serious plans to change the current Scythian Faction to the new Sarmatian Faction, I have tried to collect some of those basic ideas that might be useful for that purpose. Because TWC was down for a weekend, I have to send this last Friday’s message again.

So at first I would like to give Sarmatians these five starting settlements: Campus Roxolani, Campus Iazyges, Campus Aorsi, Campus Siracae and possibly Tanais (Maeotis).

As a close neighbour Neapolis Scythica would be a Scythian Rebel Settlement, and Panticapaeum (Pantikapaion), Chersonesus (Khersonesos) and Olibia would be a part of the Independent Greek States in the beginning of the game. Otherwise I am quite happy to keep the Bosporan Kingdom just a provincial campaign, but we could give Tanais to the Scythian Rebels if we want to affect the campaign difficulty level in this way.

The SARMATIAN BASIC ROSTER based on mostly current Scythian units could look like this:

1. Warlord’s Hold:
Sarmatian Spearwomen (low cost female garrison unit similar to previously mentioned Sarmatian Wives)
Steppe Hunters (similar but slightly better Archers-Spearmen unit than current Steppe Infantry)

2. Muster Field:
Scythian Horse Archers (the term Scythian was often used as a synonym for nomad horse archers of Eurasia)

3. Meeting Hall:
Scythian Light Cavalry (the term Sarmatian could be used for those higher level units after this)

4. Hall of Heroes:
Sarmatian Noble Lancers (renamed Scythian Noble Lancers)
Sarmatian Noble Women (female horse archers unit)

5. Hundredmen’s Hall:
Sarmatian Noble Archers (renamed Scythian Noble Archers)
Sarmatian Cataphracts (renamed Scythian Cataphracts)




Possible post-Marian units for Sarmatia:

• Sarmatian Archeresses (replacement for Sarmatian Spearwomen)
• Sarmatian Horse Archers (replacement for Scythian Horse Archers)
• Sarmatian Light Cavalry (replacement for Scythian Light Cavalry)
• Sarmatian Argaragantes (upgraded elite shock cavalry)
• Venedes Javelineers (proto-Slavic AOR unit)
• Alan Raiders (similar to Tocharian Raiders)
• Alan Heavy Cavalry (similar to Alan Nobles from Barbarian Invasion)

If we want to include the Alans to this game, they should arrive after the Marian reforms because they became known clearly later than the other famous Sarmatian tribes. It seems that the Alans beat the Aorsi, who were the easternmost of the Sarmatians for a long time. So the Alans are bit problematic for the time frame for this game.

In the case of the better infantry I would prefer to use those units that can be recruited from Auxiliary Barracks (e.g. Germanic Warband in the west, Thracians in the south, Finnic Hunters and Aestii Warband in the north, some Greek and Bosporan units around the Black Sea, Eastern Hillmen in the Middle East, etc.).

Sarmatians also had other interesting neighbours, e.g. Maeotians.
According to Strabo the Maeotae lived partly on fish, and partly tilled the land, but were no less warlike than their nomad neighbours. These wild hordes were sometimes tributary to the factory at the Tanais (modern Don River), and at other times to the Bosporani, revolting from one to the other. The kingdom of the Cimmerian Bosporus in later times, especially under Pharnaces, Asander, and Polemon, extended as far as the Tanais.

Maybe there could be some new AOR units like Maoetian Hillmen that can be recruited from the area near the Sea of Azov?

Besides there could be a land bridge in the southern part of the Maeotian Lake (modern Sea of Azov) and it would connect the Crimean Peninsula and the Taman Peninsula (modern Krasnodar Krai). With a land bridge Regnum Bosphoranum (Panticapaeum) and Maeotis (Tanais) could share the Kuban River (the ancient Hypanis) as a common border and maybe there could a bridge over the river that could be defended if necessary. Besides we could try to make better road connections between Panticapaeum and Colchis especially when the Bosporans would controll the coastline.

The straits are about 5 kilometres long and 4 kilometres broad at the narrowest, and are formed by an eastern extension of Crimea (Taurica, in ancient times) and the peninsula of Taman, a kind of continuation of the Caucasus. This in ancient times seems to have formed a group of islands intersected by arms of the Kuban River (Hypanis) and various sounds now silted up. The straits were called the Cimmerian Bosporus because of the similarity to the Bosporus straits between the Aegean Sea and the Black Sea, and after the Cimmerians the equestrian nomads on the steppes north of the Black Sea.


Finally here is a link to the Sarmatian pantheon that includes basically the same temples and gods as the Scythians have at the moment but there are some minor changes and additions in temple descriptions that should make them more suitable for the Sarmatians.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5327681#post5327681

How do you feel about these ideas? Something you would like to add or change?

Luc.

[Publius Quirinus]

Hey, it's back!

I'm not sure about the historicity, but how about a large-size (100?), low-quality mounted levy unit like the Huns had in vanilla BI? Like herders or something. It would lend more flavour to the steppe faction than just another infantry levy unit imo.

From a gameplay perspective, I don't think the Sarmatians should start with five settlements imo, since they don't have any immediate rivals in the region, nor are these five regions spread out ala the Indy-factions.

Other than that, I do hope to see the Sarmatians in XGM soon!

[CaesarVincens]

Well the down time ate my post, so here it is again.

I like the sound of this.
Except one bit.

Besides there could be a land bridge in the southern part of the Maeotian Lake (modern Sea of Azov) and it would connect the Crimean Peninsula and the Taman Peninsula (modern Krasnodar Krai). With a land bridge Regnum Bosphoranum (Panticapaeum) and Maeotis (Tanais) could share the Kuban River (the ancient Hypanis) as a common border and maybe there could a bridge over the river that could be defended if necessary. Besides we could try to make better road connections between Panticapaeum and Colchis especially when the Bosporans would controll the coastline.

A land bridge wight be nice, but it won't make a road. So don't base its value on that.

[LucretiusTC]

Okay, here is slightly changed version for the possible SARMATIAN ROSTER.

1. Warlord’s Hold:
Steppe Herdsmen (80 horsemen; relatively cheap and weak garrison unit; “peasants on horseback”)

2. Muster Field:
Scythian Horse Archers (50; the term Scythian was often used as a synonym for nomad horse archers of Eurasia)
Steppe Hunters (100 foot soldiers; relatively expansive light infantry unit that are needed at least as a part of the besieging army to use the ram)

3. Meeting Hall:
Scythian Light Cavalry (50; the term Sarmatian could be used for those higher level units after this)
Sarmatian Archeresses (80; female foot soldiers with a bow)

4. Hall of Heroes:
Sarmatian Noble Lancers (50; renamed Scythian Noble Lancers)
Sarmatian Noble Women (50; female horse archers unit, renamed Scythian Noble Women)

5. Hundredmen’s Hall:
Sarmatian Noble Archers (50; renamed Scythian Noble Archers, cavalry unit)
Sarmatian Cataphracts (50; renamed Scythian Cataphracts)



Possible post-Marian units for Sarmatia:

• Sarmatian Horse Archers (50; improved version of Scythian Horse Archers)
• Sarmatian Light Cavalry (50; improved version of Scythian Light Cavalry)
• Sarmatian Argaragantes (50; upgraded elite shock cavalry)
• Bosporan Thorakitai (100; expensive heavy infantry as a part of the Sarmatian besieging armies)
• Venedic Javelineers (80; proto-Slavic AOR unit in Eastern Europe)

Otherwise I would prefer develop those Auxiliary Barracks as a main resource for the decent Sarmatian infantry (e.g. Germanic Warband, Finnic Hunters, Aestii Warband, Thracians, etc.).

In the case of the land bridge maybe we could try to create the similar kind of situation near Panticapaeum as there is near Byzantium at the moment. Perhaps the road from Kotais, Colchis to Tanais, Maeotis could make a little curve that it would be nearer to Panticapaeum?

About those starting regions, the current Scythian Faction starts with 6 settlements, so if we give the possible Sarmatian Faction 4 starting regions (Roxolani, Iazyges, Aorsi, Siraces), it would be a little bit harder beginning. Those 4 regions would give the player relatively peaceful start that allows to develop those areas and therefore he won’t be forced to blitzkrieg tactics. Then Tanais and Neapolis Scythica would be controlled by the Scythian Rebels.

In this case I am naturally talking about the player’s point of view. I like the current solution in which Parthia and Scythia (and possible Sarmatia) are non-playable AI Factions in the imperial campaign with bigger unit sizes.

Luc.

[Total Roach]

In this case I am naturally talking about the player’s point of view. I like the current solution in which Parthia and Scythia (and possible Sarmatia) are non-playable AI Factions in the imperial campaign with bigger unit sizes.

My point of view as a player:
Non-playable part is fine, after my experience with Parthia and Scythia, the bigger unit sizes just seem to make Parthia and Scythia into auto-resolving juggernauts, I don't think they should have it, if it hadn't been for myself playing as GCS and the AI Romans I have no doubt the Scythians would have reached the Atlantic and the Pathians Morocco. Anyway just my thoughts.

[Scutarii]

They seem okay now, but HA's could stand to lose the extra secondary HP they were given, if they haven't already. Problem is, the bigger horse unit numbers worked well in forcing the AI to recruit large numbers of horses.... So you want to keep that, but eliminate their awesomeness in auto-resolve. Secondary HP seems to be the solution.

[Total Roach]

They seem okay now, but HA's could stand to lose the extra secondary HP they were given, if they haven't already. Problem is, the bigger horse unit numbers worked well in forcing the AI to recruit large numbers of horses.... So you want to keep that, but eliminate their awesomeness in auto-resolve. Secondary HP seems to be the solution.

Secondary HP?

[Scutarii]

From what I understand, it only affects auto-resolve, and you can change it for seperate units to affect their performance in auto-resolve. HA's were really weak in auto-resolve for vanilla, so XGM has raised secondary HP for HA's. And this combined with the larger unit sizes makes for a bit too much of an increase in their performance. I'd like to keep the larger unit sizes, but HA's could drop a secondary HP.

[Total Roach]

From what I understand, it only affects auto-resolve, and you can change it for seperate units to affect their performance in auto-resolve. HA's were really weak in auto-resolve for vanilla, so XGM has raised secondary HP for HA's. And this combined with the larger unit sizes makes for a bit too much of an increase in their performance. I'd like to keep the larger unit sizes, but HA's could drop a secondary HP.

Ok, makes sense, but I think it should be lowered for the Cataphract Archers also, most of the Parthian stacks I was up against have been 80% composed of them.

[LucretiusTC]

Here are some further ideas for the possible Sarmatian Faction. I was thinking that maybe we could change the basic infantry unit from Steppe Infantry or Steppe Hunters to something like Steppe Spearmen who would have slightly smaller unit size (80) but also little bit better statistics than Steppe Infantry (100). I have borrowed some of these ideas from post-Marian Project and Barbarian Invasion.

A possible pre-Marian roster for Sarmatian Faction could look like this:

1. Warlord’s Hold:
Steppe Herdsmen (80; relatively cheap and weak garrison unit)

Steppe Herdsmen (80 horsemen)
Steppe Herdsmen are tough, hardy men who look like peasants on horseback. Although not trained for war, they can fight they must. Appearance can be deception, as a nomad peasant is still a nomad primarily. Looking after the herds of a tribe is an important job but not necessarily one with much appreciation. These herdsmen are expected to be out in all weathers, and be hard enough to fight off predators and thieves if necessary. Their lack of war gear says more about their social position relative to a true warrior than their personal strengths. (They could use the similar kind of model as Sarmatian Herdsmen in Barbarian Invasion)

2. Muster Field:
Steppe Spearmen (80; smaller unit size than 100 men to emphasize the role of infantry units to Horse Archers Factions)
Scythian Horse Archers (50; the term Scythian was often used as a synonym for nomad horse archers of Eurasia)

Steppe Spearmen are recruited from amongst the young and low-status members of a tribe. They are given a spear, a shield and a good lesson in obedience to their betters before being pushed into a battle line. Spearmen are the men that real steppe warriors look down upon from their lofty saddles. This can be rather foolish, as a man with a spear can kill even the bravest horseman, or stop him dead in his tracks when his horse (quite sensibly) refuses to charge headlong onto a sharp spear point. These men are worth bringing to besieging battles, even if they are vulnerable to attack by missiles or swordsmen.

3. Meeting Hall:
Scythian Light Cavalry (50; the term Sarmatian could be used for those higher level units after this)
Sarmatian Archeresses (80; female warriors with a bow)

Sarmatian Archeresses (80 female foot archers)
Certainly, foot archers lack the mobility of their mounted counterparts. In exchange, Sarmatian women on foot need less space than those on horseback. Thus, Archeresses can be deployed in tighter formations that provide heavier arrow barrages. In addition, the composite bows that these foot archers employ maintain still the qualities of those of their nomadic relatives. Therefore, they shoot well and can fight in melee for a little while in a pinch. The unusual freedoms of Sarmatian women including their participation in warfare gave some credibility to the idea of their Amazon ancestors. (They could use the similar kind of model as Sarmatian Virgin Foot Archers in Barbarian Invasion).

4. Hall of Heroes:
Sarmatian Noble Lancers (50; renamed Scythian Noble Lancers)
Sarmatian Noble Women (50; female horse archers unit; renamed Scythian Noble Women)

5. Hundredmen’s Hall:
Sarmatian Noble Archers (50; renamed Scythian Noble Archers)
Sarmatian Cataphracts (50; renamed Scythian Cataphracts)

Otherwise, the Sarmatians could rely on those Auxiliary Barracks for better infantry units. For instance, the Maeotians were the indigenous population of the Northwest Caucasus, preceding the Iranian Cimmerians, Scythians and Sarmatians, and it is said that they were the ancient ancestors of the Circassians.

Then some possible post-Marian units for Sarmatians:

1. Warlord’s Hold:
Steppe Herdsmen (100); should this change after Marian reforms or remain the same in the steppe regions (hidden resources)?

2. Muster Field:
Steppe Spearmen (80); should there be a heavier version as a replacement?
Sarmatian Horse Archers (50; improved version of Scythian Horse Archers)

3. Meeting Hall:
Sarmatian Cavalry (50; improved version of Scythian Light Cavalry)
Sarmatian Archeresses (80; basically same as pre-Marian unit; perhaps experience +1)

4. Hall of Heroes:
Sarmatian Noble Lancers (50: same as pre-Marian unit, experience +1 ?)
Sarmatian Noble Women (50; same as pre-Marian unit, experience +1 ?)
Steppe Axemen (100 heavy infantry; a new post-Marian unit)

Steppe Axemen fight on foot with axes and shields and usually have very few other protections. They are mostly recruited among sedentary members or vassal tribes that are called to arms by the orders of their overlords. It is natural for tribes of the steppe to live and die on horse but the more their leaders contact and raid on sedentary people they have learnt to value the foot soldiers when they have faced more flexible infantry tactics and the high walls of the city dwellers. However, as horses are the privilege of the nomadic warriors they rather avoid doing it themselves. Therefore, this military task falls more likely to lower status members or warriors from sedentary tribes they have subjugated.

5. Hundredmen’s Hall:
Sarmatian Noble Archers (50; same as pre-Marian unit)
Sarmatian Cataphracts(50; same as pre-Marian unit)
Sarmatian Argaragantes (50 elite shock cavalry; experience 2; a new post-Marian unit); Long Range Missiles, Frighten Nearby Enemy Infantry, Excellent Morale, Can Form Wedges, May Charge Without Orders, Very Good Stamina.

The Argaragantes are the aristocratic warrior elite among the Sarmatians; they wield the kontos, a two-handed lance, very effectively. As equestrians, they have very few equals; as heavy cavalry they are used to batter lessen enemies into submission.

Post-Marian units AOR units that could be useful for Sarmatians:
Bosporan Thorakitai (100;heavy infantry as a part of the Sarmatian besieging armies)
Venedic Javelineers (80; proto-Slavic skirmishers)

About the recruitment of certain units, I have been wondering that maybe we could use those “hidden resources” to limit e.g. Steppe Herdsmen to certain steppe regions that would be still relatively large. When the Sarmatians would have more contacts to sedentary people they may start to loose some of their old nomad habits in those new regions that they have conquered.

About the role of the possible Bosporan units, should they be a part of the main Sarmatian roster as post-Marian units, or would it be better to use those Auxiliary Barracks for them? For instance, those Bosporan units could be recruitable from those Greek colonies around the Black Sea including cities like Olbia, Tomi, Sinope and Trapezus. In this case “Bosporan” would mean Hellenistic units that have both Greek and Scythian/Sarmatian influences. Historically Sarmatians maintained close contacts with the Greek centres on the Black Sea coast, in particular the Kingdom of Cimmerian Bosporus.

Otherwise, I would like have those two female units, Sarmatian Archeresses and Sarmatian Noble Women as part of the roster, because there is a certain historical justification for them and they would be special units comparing to all the other Factions. When we think about the timeframe of this game (roughly 300 BCE – 100 CE), we still should not exaggerate the cultural changes with those Marian reforms.

It is also good to remember that takes quite a long time to build those higher-level Barracks, and I am sure that e.g. Sarmatian Cataphracts are equally useful both before and after the Marian reforms.

Luc.

[LucretiusTC]

Here are some further information that I have collected about those Maoetians, and possible new unit called Maeotian Warriors:

Maeotian Warriors

The Maeotians were the indigenous population of the Northwest Caucasus, preceding the Iranian Cimmerians, Scythians and Sarmatians, and speaking a language ancestral to Circassian. In the ancient geography the Maeotian marshes (Palus Maeotis) lay where the Don River emptied into the Maeotian Lake (the Sea of Azov) near Tanais. The marshes served as a check to the westward migration of nomad peoples from the steppe of Central Asia. At times of crises the hinterland Maeotians learnt also to remove to the safety of high mountains.

Maeotians were pushed westwards by the invading Iranian Siraces, one of the Sarmatian tribes in the late fourth century BCE. However, the Maeotians and the Sarmatians established cultural and mercantile relations among themselves and with the Greek colonists on the Black Sea coast. This mutually enriching symbiosis, disrupted by the occasional strife for power, lasted for centuries.

As the Maeotians came more in contact with sedentary people they become better equipped and more heavily armed. Although they certainly used the hit and run tactic (the bows) similar to the Scythians, a part of their forces must have relied more on fighting with the long spear. According to Strabo they lived partly on fish, and partly tilled the land, but were no less warlike than their nomad neighbours.

Area of recruitment: Maoetis (settlement Tanais); unit type as Heavy Spearmen, swift peltast-spear unit, efficient against cavalry and heavy infantry?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

If we want to develop the idea that Sarmatians would recruit most of their infantry units from Auxiliary Barracks, then the other useful AOR units in the northern part of the map could be previously mentioned Aestii Warband and Finnic Hunters.


Aestii Warband

The men of Aestii spear warband are effective against cavalry and most infantry, but lack of discipline of more elite units. Their spears make them valuable defensive warriors for any warlords. The warband is also a basic unit of any Barbarian army – a group of tough warriors bound together in the service of a tribal strongman or a village headman.

This Aestii Warband belongs to proto-Baltic tribes that lived near the Baltic Sea (Mare Svebicum), and they were known in the Roman world as Aestiorum gentes, or amber gatherers. Those early Balts differentiated into Western and Eastern tribes in late centuries BCE, and over time the huge area of Baltic inhabitation shrank, due to assimilations with other groups and invasions.

The Balto-Slavic languages are believed by many Indo-Europeanists to derive from a common Proto-Balto-Slavic language. Subsequent Germanic, Gothic domination of first half of the first millennium CE in the Northern and Eastern Europe, as well as later Slavic expansion caused large migration of the Balts.

(Area of recruitment: Locus Aestii & Locus Careotae; warband with shieldwall)

Finnic Hunters

Finnic Hunters are lightly armed shock troops that are experts at hiding in woods. As the inhabitants of the northern forests they can stand a lot of snow and cold when they need to fight bravely at their home territories. The ruthless guerrilla warfare makes their enemies respect these fearsome warriors.

In their early home the Finnic peoples were in contact, on their southern flank, with the Scythians, who lived west of the Don, and with the Sarmatians, who occupied the plains to the east of it. The early Baltic tribes seem to have touched them on the west. During the centuries immediately preceding the Common Era, the ancestors of the Baltic Finns migrated westward from their original home to the eastern shore of the Baltic, south of the Gulf of Finland, where they occupied the country north of the Daugava River.

Shortly after the beginning of the Common Era, some of them crossed the Gulf of Finland and settled in southern Finland. Although the departure of the ancestors of the Baltic Finns from their Volga homelands took place so early that the movements of the central Asiatic nomads (e.g. the Huns) did not affect them directly, these incursions were responsible for other Finno-Ugrian migrations. Before the Slavs first appeared there were also more a continuous belt of Finno-Ugric tribes in Russia.

(Area of recruitment: Gentes Fennicae & Tribus Tissagetae; archer-spearmen, similar to Germanic Night Raiders)


------------------------------------------------------------

Luc.

[LucretiusTC]

Here are some collected ideas about those Bosporan, Scythian and Sarmatian units.

At first there could be Bosporan Doryphoroi as Greeks with Scythian helm and cloak, fights overhand style) (use the same model with XGM's Doryphoroi) (mercenaries). This idea is from Post-Marian project.

Here are some other interesting ideas for those Scythian and Sarmatian units, especially those Scythian Heavy Spearmen that gave me the idea of Maeotian Warriors as Heavy Spearmen:
http://www.sevenroad002.com/classical-age.com/scythians.htm

We could also borrow some ideas from this Preview for Bosporan Kingdom (RTR Platinum Mod):
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=189806
For instance, there is a unit called Bosporan Pelekephoroi (axe-bearer; Scythian pickaxe, medium-ranged darts, scale armour, and silver thureos. Alternatively, other option could be more familiar Bosporan Thorakitai with a similar model as the other XGM's Thorakitai units.

Bosporan Pelekephoroi could be a new Hellenistic unit and a sign of the sedentary influences among the Sarmatians after they have conquered most of those coastal regions around the Black Sea.

A quite long story about Hellenistic Hoplites (Roma Surrectum 2.0)
http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=104643
That story gives this kind of a description about Bosporan Epilektoi Hoplites:
The Epilektoi (=chosen) hoplites of the Bosporan Kingdom are equipped with spear, xiphos (= a double-edged, single-hand sword), bronze muscle cuirass, and a smaller version of the aspis shield, 0.75 m in diameter.


Finally, here is a couple of interesting books about Sarmatians and Bosporans:

The Army of the Bosporan Kingdom
By Mariusz Mielczarek, translated by Nick Sekunda (1999)
http://www.oxbowbooks.com/bookinfo.cfm/ID/27989//Location/Oxbow
The author uses evidence gathered from Bosporan tomb paintings, funerary stelai, terracotta figurines and representations on coins to demonstrate the interaction particularly between the Scythians and the Greeks (but also the Sindians and Maeotians) in the context of their warfare traditions.

The Sarmatians 600 BC-AD 450: (Men-At-Arms)
By Mariusz Mielczarek and Richard Brzezinski
http://books.google.fi/books?id=eeGZEgdj9-cC&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=The+Sarmatians+Mariusz+
Mielczarek&source=bl&ots=LUXyunYmWR&sig=Y0SGebcNsa8OP1WCVfrZcwkOpWE&hl
=fi&ei=4ilFSqrHMca2sgapuZzsAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1
For a thousand years the Sarmatian tribes had contacts with the major military powers of the ancient world - Darian Persia, the Crimean and Pontic kingdoms, the Celts, Thracians and finally the Romans. These armoured horsemen of the southern Russian steppes migrated into the Roman world at first as invaders and later as heavy cavalry auxiliaries. In this book, an Eastern European archaeologist describes the history, armour, weapons and tactics of a colourful warrior people who even reached Britain, whom some believe are the origin of the myths of the knights of King Arthur.

Luc.