The Sun, golf balls and why UFOs aren't aliens

[RaZor HeaD]

The nearest star system (Proxima Centauri) is slightly more than 4 light-years away from our sun.
Therefore, if our Sun were the size of a golf ball and was placed in Chicago, Proxima Centauri would be a ball bearing in Washington DC. and the Earth would be a pin prick orbiting 20 feet from the golf ball sun. The next nearest star system would be somewhere in Merry Ole' England.
Consequently, at this scale the speed of light would be equivalent to walking from Chicago to Washington D.C.
Note: For those of you in Europe. Substitute Rome, Istanbul and Mongolia for Chicago, Washington and England.

The point is...space isn't huge. It's bigger than huge. It's unbelievably, unimaginatively huge. And the time it takes to span its' distances is even more exponentially, unbelievably, unimaginatively bigger than that.

What we know...
- Unless you have zero mass or infinite energy, traveling at the speed of light is impossible
- The universe is homogeneous. This means that every where you look, the universe follows the same laws of physics that our own region of space has. And so, the above restrictions would also apply to the aliens as well.
- I think we can safely assume that any alien craft would have more than zero mass and less than infinite energy and so can only travel at a fraction of the speed of light
- Therefore, any alien craft traveling to our system from a nearby star would take decades to get here. And if they were coming from someplace even 20-30 light-years away, you're talking about a trip of well over a hundred years if not centuries. Any farther than that and it would take millennia (plural)
- There are three categories of technology that a civilization can possess. It can have the technology level of exploiting the energy resources of a planet (our current level), a solar system and a galaxy.
- In order to travel even at a significant fraction of the speed of light, a civilization would most likely have to have the second level of technology (exploiting the energy resources of a solar system)
- Finally, the only way to travel faster than light speed (i.e., breach the laws of physics and utilize worm-holes, warp speed etc.) would most likely require the third level of technology (exploiting the energy resources of a galaxy)

Now. Are you telling me that some of you truly believe that aliens, who must be in possession of a technology that at the very least can exploit the resources of an entire solar system: traveled across the endless reaches of space for decades (if not centuries) and with all of that fantastic power at their command...one of the first things they do when they get here is crash into a field outside of Area 51...or they spend most of their time kidnapping poor unfortunate farmers so they can analyze their rear ends?

Space is just too big and the mechanisms required to get here are far too powerful for me to believe that aliens are actually capable of coming all the way here: but are completely powerless to either avoid crashing into a planet or evade being captured by a circa 1940's US government. And don't you think they might have better things to do with their time than forcibly examine our posteriors?
Besides. I live in the USA. And I know for a fact that that my government is barely able to deliver the mail properly, let alone out-smart an alien civilization with (at least) a 2000 year head start on them.

[Von Kickyourass]

lol your argument has convinced me!

[cupoftea]

I don't believe in aliens anymore but i do believe in live on another planet, be it just as technologicly the same as us, or just bacteria.

[Alba gu Brath]

What if they managed to bend space? i.e wormholes. That would shorten their journey.

[DisgruntledGoat]

What if they managed to bend space? i.e wormholes. That would shorten their journey.

It would also put them in possession of technology that makes their exploits here rather odd. And for a civilization SOOO advanced, why do they still perform the same abductions, you'd think after the first 1000 or so reported abductions they would have learned everything they needed to know.

Alien life has never visited earth, it likely never will just like we are likely never to visit another inhabited planet. Space is too vast for anything like that. For example, Carl Sagan calculated the the number probable planets in the universe to be 10 billion trillion. However if you were randomly dropped into the universe the chances you would be on, or even NEAR, a planet would be less than one in a billion trillion trillion (thats 10³³). Thats just to help with the idea of how vast the universe is and how empty it is.


Even overly optimistic drake equation calculations place the number of intelligent civilizations over 1 million. HOWEVER, even with such a large amount of civilizations that still leads to an incredibly low density in the galaxy. One were the civilizations are at least 200 Light Years ago from one another.

In short. Aliens haven't been here before and they aren't ever going to be here.

[Maverick]

Arguing backwards. Figure out what and who before how and why.

[Don in the North]

It would also put them in possession of technology that makes their exploits here rather odd. And for a civilization SOOO advanced, why do they still perform the same abductions, you'd think after the first 1000 or so reported abductions they would have learned everything they needed to know.

i would like to counter this with an example of human behavior.
scientists these days, researchers and whatnot, are all tracking various species of animals, those that live on land and in the oceans/water.
constantly we are "abducting" members of each species, and taking samples. we are also tracking down those we have 'tagged' for updates. we are 'abducting' their offspring, etc.

these samples are commonly DNA where we test for diseases and other info, and as more recently we need the DNA to establish lineages/evolution trees.

perhaps the aliens are doing the same? constantly taking samples from successive generations of our species in order to establish something they are curious about? or perhaps to 'predict' where/what the next step of human evolution will be?

regardless, many so called abductions are not so. by that i mean a large portion of experiences are not really abductions at all.
but some are indeed.

[MrMofo]

If traveling at the speed of light is impossible, how does light do it?

[Sphere]

If traveling at the speed of light is impossible, how does light do it?

If something has no mass, it travels at light speed (in a vacuum) . Light (or photons if you will) have zero mass. Anything with mass would require an infinite amount of energy to reach light speed.

[Chaigidel]

if the higz boson exists and one could detach yourself from it --- you would instantly go the speed of light, since mass is related to the net.

but you would be slipping outside your membrane, probably pretty dangerous

[Visna]

Meh, until a see an alien who asks to be taken to my leader, UFO's remain what the name implies.

[RaZor HeaD]

Arguing back wards. Figure out what and who before how and why.

This is true.
But since we obviously can't determine the what and who, we can only argue the how and why.
laughing emoticon = laughing At you btw.

What if they managed to bend space? i.e wormholes. That would shorten their journey.

Yes it would...but.
In order to utilize wormholes, warp speed etc. they would have to possess a technology that could actually physically manipulate the fabric of space-time. And in contrary to what our science fiction tells us, this is exceptionally hard to do. In fact, I figure the only thing harder to do than controlling space-time would be achieving a dominion over the inter-dimensional. Therefore, in order to achieve this control over space-time, they would most likely require the third level of technology (exploiting the energy resources of a galaxy).
And I just find it hard to believe: that if some civilization had what is basically god-like powers over the physical universe (physical control of space-time and energy resources of a galaxy), they would be as incompetent as UFOs are reported to be (can't avoid crashing into a planet and captured by WWII era governments), as ineffectual (can't prevent being seen everywhere), or as trivial (messing around with abductions and peoples bottoms).

Now don't get me wrong.
Although it doesn't appear to me that UFOs are aliens, I do believe they are real. But they are a phenomenon (something we're ignorant of).
Unfortunately, most of man kind is hardwired to substitute myth-making whenever we're confronted with a situation where we should just say, "I don't know".

[Digbert]

here is something to shake up Alien thing apparently the French are about to disclose the whole UFO Alien conspiracy by this Friday. I don't quite know what to make of it myself but maybe just maybe this will come true

The words 'Nous ne sommes pas seuls' or 'We are not alone' will be somberly pronounced this week by a senior Government official of the nation that brought the world 'Liberté, égalité, fraternité'. France is set to concede that it is aware of an alien presence on earth by no later than Friday.

Paris has chosen follow the lead of maverick UFO nation Brazil and resist US pressure to continue delaying disclosure until America feels it is ready for the event.

It is believed that a telephone hot-line has been set up in Paris to deal with queries from panicky citizens. A special division of France's police department is also to be established: to handle UFO reports.

The French have gone to so much effort to protect their culture from encroaching 'Anglo-Saxon' influences and now they are preparing to protect their culture from what might be even more powerful extraterrestrial forces.

It is believed Holland and Germany are set to soon follow France's lead. //M. Cohen

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/7034/56/

[Maverick]

This is true.
But since we obviously can't determine the what and who, we can only argue the how and why.
Laughing eyes = laughing At you btw.

Why obviously?

And what does speculating about how many angels can dance on the head of a needle accomplish exactly?

Laughing eyes = laughing At you btw.

I'm going to need you to do two things: learn how to use the rolling eyes smilie in its proper context and get over me.

here is something to shake up Alien thing apparently the French are about to disclose the whole UFO Alien conspiracy by this Friday. I don't quite know what to make of it myself but maybe just maybe this will come true

A group of French Scientists and Generals released this report in the 90's. It's just about the best thing to read on the subject and there's no purposeless conjecture about "how?" and "why?" it's very scientific.

[TheXand]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

here is something to shake up Alien thing apparently the French are about to disclose the whole UFO Alien conspiracy by this Friday. I don't quite know what to make of it myself but maybe just maybe this will come true



http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/7034/56/

*sigh* those wacky french, still don't see how that will aid them against "anglo-saxon" cultures (as an aside, are they still stuck in the middle ages or what?anglo-saxon, pfft. besides which the french have pretty much the same culture as the rest of us in the west)
hmm not sure that will actually come to pass it tho would be quite detrimental to the french governments credibility and reputation.

btw i do believe there are some weird things that happen unidentified objectwise but i really don't think a sentient species would travel so far only to not make contact. be interesting to know if the governments of the world know anything though and what if they do, i don't believe in any big conspiracy or anything but governments do classify things to be released at a later date (like there are still things from WW1 kept classifie by the british government that are going to be released soon, they were to be kept classified for 100 years)

also, a big OMFG and FFS to the retard who commented in that link (http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/7034/56/) and i quote

"They will probably be pawns of satan to trick us into denouncing God, if they exist at all."

Idiot.

[Alba gu Brath]

And I just find it hard to believe: that if some civilization had what is basically god-like powers over the physical universe (physical control of space-time and energy resources of a galaxy), they would be as incompetent as UFOs are reported to be (can't avoid crashing into a planet and captured by WWII era governments), as ineffectual (can't prevent being seen everywhere), or as trivial (messing around with abductions and peoples bottoms).

Now don't get me wrong.
Although it doesn't appear to me that UFOs are aliens, I do believe they are real. But they are a phenomenon (something we're ignorant of).
Unfortunately, most of man kind is hardwired to substitute myth-making whenever we're confronted with a situation where we should just say, "I don't know".

Haven't you ever heard of "accidental"? Maybe there was a malfunctioin or something, who knows.

Also, what about reports from NASA astronaughts about seeing UFO's etc. Don't you think it's odd that NASA claims not to investigate such things, when if it did turn out to be an alien civilization they would have made the biggest discovery ever.

One theory is that we are possibly not advanced enough to be brought into the bigger picture (if there is one). If you've read about the ranking of civilizations theory(http://mkaku.org/home/?page_id=246).

[RaZor HeaD]

@Digbert.
Very interesting.
But it was the Macedonian International News Agency reporting this however, and I would imagine they don't necessarily have too much credibility.
Think I'll reserve this for a "I'll believe it when I see it" type of thing.

Why obviously?

Obviously because: we can't determine the nature of what or who UFOs are.
And since we lack the capacity to do this, we are forced to contemplate only what we do know: the how they could do this.
Note: Being a cynic only to be cynical is exceedingly lame Maverick.

I'm going to need you to do two things: learn how to use the rolling eyes smilie in its proper context and get over me.

So who are you? The emoticon police?
I'll use my smilies any way I choose to.

As for your second request...
- You've done nothing but troll my posts
- You do little more than argue just to hear your own voice
- You've tacitly admitted in your own posts that you primarily come to this site only to aggravate others
- I've been repeatedly forced to report you for insulting me, trolling and constantly posting off-topic on my threads
- Your sole method of debate is to sarcastically alter the meaning of someones statements and then casually attempt to call this an argument.

I've no problem with you what-so-ever if you learn to behave yourself.
Until there's evidence of this however, I place you squarely in the "Sounds like a Malignant Troglodyte" category and you can expect me to consistently treat you as such in my posts.

Note to moderator: Sorry about the off-topic posting. And if moderation deems it necessary, I'll remove the above section.

Haven't you ever heard of "accidental"? Maybe there was a malfunctioin or something, who knows.

I've tried to distill my argument into what we factually do know and then draw some conclusions based on this.
While admittedly, "who knows if they just accidentally crashed" is one possibility, it's still only wild speculation and therefore has not been factored into this by me.

Don't you think it's odd that NASA claims not to investigate such things, when if it did turn out to be an alien civilization they would have made the biggest discovery ever.

No I don't.
- The incentive and rewards for NASA to discover this are great
- Even so, they've subsequently decided it's not worth investigating the matter
Therefore (subtracting for conspiracy theories) NASA itself has probably decided that UFOs are simply a phenomenon and not aliens.

If you've read about the ranking of civilizations theory...

Excellent and comprehensive article. Although, it does appear to only clarify the same points I made in my OP.
And so if you were trying to present a counter argument with it, I apologize because I can't see what your point is.

its possible they are observing us while waiting for us to be more advanced before contacting us. there might also be a form of galactic council thingy who knows.

Yes it's entirely possible.
I'm not factoring for the motivations of the aliens in my OP however. Because it's entirely speculative and can't be quantified.

[Alkarin]

And I just find it hard to believe: that if some civilization had what is basically god-like powers over the physical universe (physical control of space-time and energy resources of a galaxy), they would be as incompetent as UFOs are reported to be (can't avoid crashing into a planet and captured by WWII era governments), as ineffectual (can't prevent being seen everywhere), or as trivial (messing around with abductions and peoples bottoms).

now i find this arrogant. or any word you would like to associate it with. I mean...we know absolutely nothing of any life whatsoever outside of our PLANET let alone our solar system/galaxy and beyond. we dont even know if said lifeforms would even be carbon based or anything of how they would react or think saying their ways seem too stupid to be alien is a but arrogant. I mean yea i dont believe there have been aliens that have visited earth, or atleast none that i know of. but is it no possible their ship did happen to crash? or became visible due to malfunctions? or if abducting humans is even for scientific purposes? we cant make these assumptions till we even find another species outside of our planet. let alone a sentient species. Now i do agree with you mostly. but you have to understand we cant make such assumtions

[jumong]

its possible they are observing us while waiting for us to be more advanced before contacting us. there might also be a form of galactic council thingy who knows.

[jumong]

we wont know about how they will attempt to overcome this until we meet them and i dont know how long that will be.
im confident that its possible to invent something that will get us through space quick enough.

its like my lifetime dream to explore space and touch down on other possibly terrestial planets but im probably far dead already before that happens