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  1. #1
    Wilder's Avatar Senator
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    Default How to Save the Republican Party?

    Any one that follows American politics at all and has not had there head buried in the sand on mars, knows that the Republicans have been taking something of a thrashing lately. Over the 8 years of the Bush administration republican leadership alienated huge swaths of the American populace, and changed hands repeatedly. Over and over again the Bush administration made decisions with only the support of republican loyalists, ignoring criticisms and concerns on behalf of the left, by dismissing them as "unpatriotic", "cowardly", or "fringe", and relying on ideology heavy slogans, rather than reasoned statements, to refute arguments. The worrying trend of the increasingly simplistic and polar debate proses accelerated dramatically, largely thanks to republicans at the highest levels relying on arguments that in their entirety could be printed on a bumper sticker and appeals to raw emotion without any thought to pragmatic policy, like the over repeated "have you liberals forgotten 9/11?". The Bush presidency, made many decisions, some ineffective, some arguably immoral, and even some that are simply unconstitutional, because it felt that since it was in power it did not need to consult dissenting opinions and simply steamrolled over them. While enormously effective in getting what it wanted, this monolithic and unyielding take on politics severely damaged the legitimacy of Bush and the Republicans at large in the eyes of many political centrists, and in my opinion allowed them to make various unwise choices, blinded by their own ideology, without ever subjecting their ideas to real debate before being implemented.

    In 2006, the resentment of Republican control overwhelmed the inertia of the status quo, and the republican controlled congress was turned over to the Democrats. In 2008, the continued resentment at the perceived ineptitude of the Bush presidency, in conjunction with with McCain's inability to distance himself from Bush resulted in what has come to pass in American presidential elections as a landslide in favor of Barrack Obama*. I was among those that voted for Obama. Happy that Obama had won I initially ignored the concerns put forward by republicans, but soon realized that was much the same mistake the the Bush supporters made.

    Given the new scandal regarding senate majority leader Nancy Pelosi, what should have been obvious is now undeniable: that integrity, intelligence, and understanding of the issues at hand, are not doled out along party lines. having meaningful debate is a total necessity to the political wellbeing of any nation, and I think, although I have a Liberal bent, the best first step is to revitalize the Republican party so in can force the Obama administration to examine policy and make good decisions.

    Here are my thoughts as to what the Republican party can do to become a viable political force once again:

    1) De-democratize. It has been the trend in not only American politics, but also around the world, that things are becoming more and more democratic. This has brought many benefits, but also a handful of serious problems. for instance, look at California. Once the cutting edge of America, it is now a political wasteland of dysfunction, under both liberals and conservatives. Why? because the California government allows the people, through popular votes, to decide on what laws to introduce therefor bypassing the California legislator, resulting in any bill that sounds good, superficially, being enacted. If it does not work for states, it won't work for parties. As it stands right now, both Parties are blobs that respond to what ever is the popular whim of the moment, an incapable of establishing a semi-coherent ideology, both parties defining themselves as the opposite of the other, and little else. This is madness and it has to stop. If the republicans adopt a real leadership with the ability to ignore popular yet stupid ideas, and not just a seres of figureheads to spin the news, they will have a real tactical advantage over democrats, and the Dems will be forced to act in kind.

    2) Selectively liberalize. Admittedly an easy thing for me to ask, yet a critical one. There are a number of issues that republicans have spent countless amounts of political capital to advance, only to beat dead horses. for instance, homosexuality. Not only are the various talking points conservatives use to combat homosexuality dead wrong (the concept of Homosexuals "recruiting" kids comes to mind) in is becoming an increasingly big thorn in the republicans side. statistically younger people are more accepting of homosexuality, and the younger they are the more OK they are with it. This trend shows no signs in slowing down, and in a generation hence, homophobia will be a political anathema on par with racism. The republicans need to drop the issue NOW before it is too late, yes this will alienate some republican supporters, but those same people will not go over to the democrats, and it will allow a much larger constituency of log cabin republicans and like minded people to join the republicans. This same argument can be applied to a number of issues, like state mandated prayer in schools, opposition to environmentalism, and flag burning. A word to the wise: get off it, you have more important things to do.

    Note: While it may seem as if I am arguing that republicans give up core values, one does need to understand that although rampant populism is not a good thing, at some point political parties need to be functional, ie take in votes, which may mean compromising on issues that one would rather not.

    3) Get serous about small government. So often you hear republicans throwing temper tantrums about how big the government is and the problems associated with it. This is not an unfair complaint, by any stretch of the imagination, and yet republicans have proven again and again to be ineffective and alienating (the last thing that political party should be) when dealing with government size. Republicans, and Conservatives at large, have made a number of mistakes in dealing with government size. The first, is that they have repeatedly been unable to recognize potential allies across the aisle. Republicans have repeatedly cast democrats as socialists and thoroughly corrupted by anti-capitalist sentiments, and although there is a strong curnal of truth to that it does us a deserves because, most of us are not liberals because of economic policy but because of other issues, in fact, there is a very strong current of libertarianism among the American left. Demonizing the left as uncompromisingly socialist makes propositions that would shrink government much harder to pass as well as increasing the unnecessary and largely artificial rift between Americans. This is compounded by the assumption that the socialist element among the democrats want big government, which is untrue (except for the tiny communist element), because these folks don't want big government, they want adequate government, which is a very different thing, and there is much common ground to be had. The second mistake they make in terms of shrinking government is the inability to prioritize what things should be scrutinized. Regardless of how you feel about American public education, threatening to cut it will not win you any political capital. Rather there is much less controversial fat that can be focused on first, and it would do wonders for republicans to cut this, because there is a lot. A third reason is a total inability to actually cut government size, and this has held republicans back the most. Cutting taxes is not enough, one also must decrease government spending. I some times am awestruck at the self-righteous stupidity of politicians as the plunge us into further debt.

    4) Dump old idols. There are a number of voices out there that are loud and abrasive and deeply, as Yahtzee said, "mouth breathingly, paste eatingly, chasing the girls around the playground with a piece of dog pooingly stupid". I know this would require some political finesse, but you do not want Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, and Pat Robertson as the most enduring conservative voices out there. You just don't. For all the hubbub about moderate Muslims failing to condemn radicals, American conservatives do far worse. There are some great conservative commentators in the world, people who don't intentionally say crazy to sell more books, the kind of people that can give the liberal dominated academia a run for it's money but right now there is not much impetus for young republican minded people to think and act like real agents for responsible governance, because no one listens to the real thinkers.

    I would even give this advice in a broader sense, although I admit it is far more controversial: Forget Reagan. He was a poor president, and a poor conservative. Why the man is remembered as otherwise is still a little bewildering to me, because his administration was repeatedly unpragmatic and ineffective, he simply got quite lucky that he had talented people work in the US government at the time. Now, I recognize that it would be political suicide to make ANY disparaging remarks about the man's legacy, but in a recent interview with a number of influential republicans every single one said that the president that they admire the most is Reagan. What is wrong with Lincoln? or Teddy Roosevelt? I mean come on. Even Nixon or Eisenhower, who might not be the most politically savvy choices, were great republicans that did great things for for our nation.

    5) Redefine your relationship with science. Allow me to hit you with a statistic: 67% of registered Republicans reject the theory of evolution. I have said this two times already on TWC and no one has seemed very surprised. This is very, very bad, for a number of reasons, not least among them is the fact that this shows with some degree of certainty that scientific illiteracy among republicans and American conservatives is weirdly, and dangerously high. I usually don't respond to comments before they are made, (I hate having words put in my mouth, golden rule and all that) but this warrants an exception: "So what?", you say "Plenty of democrats believe in stupid things..." This is unarguably true, but I quote myself in response

    If you do not believe in evolution you do not understand, on any level, Biology, Ecology, Psychology, Sociology, Anthropology, and, thus, many of the connected sciences, including huge swaths of history, and in my opinion, morality. You would be unable to perform any effective governance in anything that involved these subjects.
    "But Wilder," you say, "thats all well and good, but how will that help the republican party survive? Right or wrong if it gets them votes you can't argue with them in this context can you?" Very true, but ultimately the Christian right wants to feel that they will be represented, and I am convinced that a moderate bible thumper that is sincere in his or her faith, can convincingly argue politics from a Christian perspective, and yet accepts and understands the importance and validity of science, would not go far awry. I think the Christian right would be accepting of someone like this and it would be effective in bringing in nonreligious, people who agree with his or her politics.

    Another concern I have related to this subject matter is the refusal among many conservatives to recognize ANY of the scientific validity of Anthropogenic global warming, for very dumb reasons. Obviously I have my biases here, but I am being totally sincere when I say that the knee jerk reactions of republicans against almost any environmental initiative, is useless. I am not denying that there is plenty of pseudoscience and useless regulation put forward by environmentalists, and republicans would do well to scrutinize it, they are doing themselves no favors by acting like all environmentalism is a socialist plot. Repeat after me: environmentalism is about the environment, not socialism. Not only would accepting environmentalism result is somewhat better policymaking, it would cement the support of rural voters nation wide. from Appalachia, to the rockies rural, and, interestingly, Christian Americans are finding that preservation of the environment is increasingly important to them.

    If the republicans got this particular issue sorted, I would seriously consider changing my party affiliation.

    6) Define yourself by what you want not what you don't. This is a simple rule, so I'll keep it simple, don't be non-democrats, or non liberal, be REPUBLICANS. It is much easer to vote for people like that.

    7) Remember politics is not a zero sum game. I still find it weird, that in a country allegedly dominated by left leaning media, the word "Conservative" has absolutely no negative connotations, yet "Liberal" has tons. The demonetization of opponents in politics is an effective tactic, and calling for its retirement would be both naive and poor advice. Yet there is a point a diminishing returns when it comes to smear campaigns, and Republicans have far passed that point. Worse still they have apparently convinced themselves that Liberals are universally stupid, PC, vapid, alarmist, hive minded, borderline retarded cowards, who vote for people based on skin color. It's not true and it is a fully unthought out paradigm, that actually damages the right more than the left. In the end, competition is good, but effective governance is about cooperation.




    So, what do you think? What should republicans do? I'm particularly interested to hear from those Republicans here.

  2. #2
    Karoliner's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: How to Save the Republican Party?

    My thoughts:

    1) Move away from the far, religious, right. If anything, the hawkish fundamentalists have done more to give the Republican Party a bad name than gain a significant support.
    2) Move away from the Old Guard, ie Rush Limbaugh, Dick Cheney. With the defeats in Congress, the White House, and across the U.S., the Republican Party needs to get away from those who are the "steretypical" Republican: loud mouthed, warmongering.
    3) Back to roots. Stress the ideals of smaller government and individuality.
    4) Cooperate and compromise. The Republican Party needs to work with the Democratic Party to get things done, especially with the minority. Country first, party second. If the Republicans can cooperate with the Democrats, we will see more things getting done, and a plausible resurgance in Republican Party voters. Right now, though, seeing Republicans opposing every single thing while shouting at the Democrats to add "Socialist" to their name makes them to be more of sore losers than a party I registered in.


    It will not be easy, it will not be at least until Obama's first term that the Republican Party might be on the comeback. Secure the voter base, ie the military, conservatives, libertarians. If they are lost, the Republicans may not have a hope at coming back anytime soon.

    EDIT: basically what you said, just shorter

    Swedish-American. Self proclaimed Europhile .

  3. #3

    Default Re: How to Save the Republican Party?

    Well, looks like alot of things have been covered. I'd just like to add that theoretically the moderates from both parties might be able to form a third party and actually dominate, seeing as how the American system already pulls everything towards the middle anyway, and the vast majority of voters wouldn't be hardcore left/right-aligned...

    Its a possibility...

  4. #4
    Viking Prince's Avatar Horrible(ly cute)
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    Default Re: How to Save the Republican Party?

    The Republicans will do just fine by focusing on fiscal issues. Rather than national positions on moral issues, let these issues be decided within each state. Let the states make the decisions and experiment. If state level parties want to take positions, so be it. Unless the issue is a constitutional question, the local level governs best.
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  5. #5
    Justice and Mercy's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: How to Save the Republican Party?

    The Republican Party needs to stop being a bunch of Democrats, both for the health of this country and their own party.

    Focus on the most important of American ideals, limited government and greater individual freedom.

    And Reagan, while not the best President, is the best modern President hand's down. An excellent champion of conservatism.
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

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    manofarms89's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: How to Save the Republican Party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    The Republican Party needs to stop being a bunch of Democrats, both for the health of this country and their own party.

    Focus on the most important of American ideals, limited government and greater individual freedom.

    And Reagan, while not the best President, is the best modern President hand's down. An excellent champion of conservatism.
    best republican president sure, best modern president no.

  7. #7

    Default Re: How to Save the Republican Party?

    Wait until Obama screws up so badly in about 2 years and Republicans will come back

  8. #8
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: How to Save the Republican Party?

    1. Get the away from the religious right. Stop trying to legislate morality through the Federal government, let the States decide.
    2. Actually push through with small government.
    3. Focus on economic & foreign issues - you know, the ones that actually matter - rather than social issues. May overlap with #1.

  9. #9

    Default Re: How to Save the Republican Party?

    The OP said pretty much everything. A big change would be to move towards the Goldwater approach to politics. Rather than emphasizing forcing moral values on other people, Republicans should follow Goldwater's idea of having the government force no values upon people. This includes ending support for prayer in school and denying money for stem cell research. However, Republicans should not voice support for these social issues; they should remain completely neutral on social issues. Republicans should also be more forceful on foreign policy. In dealing with terrorist groups and "enemies" many Americans long for tough foreign policy. However, Republicans have failed to do this. Instead, they just go around screaming "Amurrica!!!!" and calling Democrats unpatriotic for not supporting Republicans policies. They should return to Goldwater's strategy of talking tough to our enemies such as Iran and terrorist groups rather than acting indecisive like Bush did.

  10. #10
    magickyleo101's Avatar Here Come The Judge
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    Default Re: How to Save the Republican Party?

    Republicans need to look at the demographic writing on the wall and drop the anti-immigration nonsense. This isn't, I think, so much the fault of the party as a whole (after all, Bush supported immigration reform) but the anti-immigrant fringe is killing us with Hispanic voters who are a major voting coalition.

  11. #11
    Domesticus
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    Default Re: How to Save the Republican Party?

    Why would GOP push for smaller government?
    Sometimes both sides are wrong. Unfortunately most people do not understand this and argue endlessly.

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    Default Re: How to Save the Republican Party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Prince View Post
    Why would GOP push for smaller government?
    Because that's what American conservatism means.
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

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    Default Re: How to Save the Republican Party?

    wait until the democrats make a mistake and take advantage of it
    Thats the only "real" way for the repulicans to win, Everything else suggested is nonsense that might make them appeal to a greater base, but still not enough to make them win.
    Btw obama only one by a rather small % margin, and hes the best canidate the democrats have had for DECADES(though to be fair, Mccain was a really good canidate as well) , That seems to indicate conservative ameerica is not as weak as people think, and people are just waiting to pounce on obama for making a mistake.

  14. #14
    Viking Prince's Avatar Horrible(ly cute)
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    Default Re: How to Save the Republican Party?

    Quote Originally Posted by magickyleo101 View Post
    Republicans need to look at the demographic writing on the wall and drop the anti-immigration nonsense. This isn't, I think, so much the fault of the party as a whole (after all, Bush supported immigration reform) but the anti-immigrant fringe is killing us with Hispanic voters who are a major voting coalition.
    Republicans are not against immigration. To be honest, most immigrants are socially conservative. The conservative focus is on the rule of law and people jumping the border are a difficult issue to resolve. The lefties try to blur the two issues into one and the media are just happy to play along.

    Quote Originally Posted by roy34543 View Post
    wait until the democrats make a mistake and take advantage of it
    Thats the only "real" way for the repulicans to win, Everything else suggested is nonsense that might make them appeal to a greater base, but still not enough to make them win.
    Btw obama only one by a rather small % margin, and hes the best canidate the democrats have had for DECADES(though to be fair, Mccain was a really good canidate as well) , That seems to indicate conservative ameerica is not as weak as people think, and people are just waiting to pounce on obama for making a mistake.
    There is no need to wait for a mistake. The Democrat Party will make the predictable mistakes that blind allegiance to government unions brings. The bailouts of Chrysler and GM will haunt the Democrats unless the court decides to assure all creditors are treated equally before the law. Federalizing healthcare financing is another disaster with predictable results. Ignoring the demographics of social security is also just sitting there. There is no shortage of failings of the Democratic Party on the national stage and there is no need to wait for a 'slip up' to begin the process.
    Last edited by Viking Prince; June 09, 2009 at 01:21 AM.
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  15. #15
    magickyleo101's Avatar Here Come The Judge
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    Default Re: How to Save the Republican Party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    Republicans are not against immigration. To be honest, most immigrants are socially conservative. The conservative focus is on the rule of law and people jumping the border are a difficult issue to resolve. The lefties try to blur the two issues into one and the media are just happy to play along.
    Two points:

    First Point: There is no "rule of law" side on the illegal immigration issue because the fight is about what we should do with people who have already broken the law.

    Explanation: What's really at issue in the immigration debate is what we should do with people who are already in the country. The debates are over whether we should give driver's licenses to illegal immigrants, or whether we should refuse them healthcare, or whether we should provide a formal path to citizenship that can be accessed without first being deported.

    In other words, the debate here is a debate about remedies. We're asking what to do given the fact that the law has already been broken. There is no such thing as a "rule of law" stance when you're debating remedies (assuming all the remedies are legal to administer). There's only a rule of law side of a debate when one side of the debate is advocating some illegal course of action.

    So, for example, we know that right now in America there are people who haven't paid their some portion of the taxes they owe (i.e. who are in violation of one or another provision of the tax code). You might think we should deal with these people by taking away all their property and denying them a driver's license (so they can't even drive another person's car). I might say that we should only take their non-essential property and we should still let them have a driver's license. Neither of these positions can claim to be the "rule of law" position because both are proposing legal solutions to past law breaking. You don't have to advocate the harshest or most extreme possible punishment for a past infraction in order to support the rule of law.


    Second Point: Even if there was a rule a law position to be had, that simply wouldn't be the main issue for a significant portion of Republicans and the distinction doesn't help to save the Republican party.

    Explanation: Being a Republican myself and having worked with lots of Republicans in the Texas legislature, I feel fairly secure in saying that for many Republicans the issue is really just an issue of disliking immigrants. You see this, for example, in the amount of time they spend talking about Spanish language education or what we should do with the American born children of illegal immigrants (often times they advocate the illegal option of deporting those children).

    I don't mean to imply that all or even most Republicans are like this, but enough are that it makes the whole party look racist. What's more, since those Republicans also claim only to be concerned about the rule of law, the whole issue, regardless of whether it's couched in "rule of law" language, simply hurts Republicans among hispanics.

    So insofar as we're talking about reviving the party, I think we need to tell the fringe of the party that keeps harping on the issue to drop it.
    Last edited by magickyleo101; June 09, 2009 at 04:36 PM.

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    Default Re: How to Save the Republican Party?

    I don't think the republicans are in as bad of shape as the current make-up of the federal government would suggest. The last two elections didn't mark a shift in the ideology of the electorate, but rather a vote for competency in government. The Bush-era was marked by two poorly managed wars, failure to reform immigration, healthcare, and entitlements, failure to manage and regulate the economy, failure to create a legal and sustainable anti-terror policy, failure to make progress in N. Korea or Iran, and I won't even mention Katrina. However you feel about Obama's policies, he was a bootstrapper with a Harvard Law degree that was intelligent, articulate, presented his visions of policy, and above all presented himself as a pragmatist ready to get things done. While McCain was lifer-politician, the son of an admiral, and he made jokes about being last in his class at the Academy.

    I think the best move for the Repulicans right now is take up Obama's challenge on entitlement reform (and his Federal Budget Pay-as-You-Go Bill anounced today), because if they don't take an active role in these fiscal responisbility initiatives and let Obama steel their thunder, and instead harp on the costs of the Stimulus, they will look more-and-more like empty politicians looking to score political points rather than compotent public servants ready to make policy.

  17. #17
    Viking Prince's Avatar Horrible(ly cute)
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    Default Re: How to Save the Republican Party?

    @magickyleo101

    First Point: There is no "rule of law" side on the illegal immigration issue because the fight is about what we should do with people who have already broken the law.
    This is really sig worthy! Claiming there is no rule of law question and using the word illegal in the same sentence. Outstanding. The entire rule of law question revolves around consequences. People who have illegally entered the country need to be held to account. This is required before discussion of drivers’ licenses and social service provision should even be discussed. This is what I mean by blurring the line and mixing the two issues. Thanks for such a perfect example to prove my point.


    I do not know who you know or what you do, but I fail to see any correlation between people not liking immigrants and the Republican Party. Democrats are pure on this issue and Republicans are to be accused of disliking immigrants in general. Again you are proving my point about blurring the issues. Thanks.


    If you are in the Republican Party, I would suggest that you should speak a bit fairer of your fellow party members. I do not personally know a single party official or elected politician that hates immigrants. The nation is the result of immigration. My own family immigrated to the USA from Sweden and Denmark in the 1880's and also right after 1900. My sweetie's family is also immigrants in the past 120 years. If I were to make assumptions, I would assume that some people dislike immigrants and they are not particularly members of a particular party or leaning left or right. Your personal experiences may be of interest, but they do not form a sufficient data base. Perhaps you just simply hang out with a bunch of immigrations bigots or in some other way skew the data. If you want to pull some race cards, what about the Black politicians and their positions on illegal Hispanic immigration while supporting efforts to allow mass immigration from Caribbean hell holes such as Haiti.

    As I stated in my post --recent Hispanic immigrants are generally social conservatives as Catholics and immigrants from rural areas. They are also sympathetic to attractions of the Democratic Party as well.
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  18. #18
    magickyleo101's Avatar Here Come The Judge
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    Default Re: How to Save the Republican Party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    This is really sig worthy! Claiming there is no rule of law question and using the word illegal in the same sentence. Outstanding. The entire rule of law question revolves around consequences. People who have illegally entered the country need to be held to account. This is required before discussion of drivers’ licenses and social service provision should even be discussed. This is what I mean by blurring the line and mixing the two issues. Thanks for such a perfect example to prove my point.
    This would probably be a witty comment if it were in some way responsive to what I actually wrote...

    This isn't an issue of "blurring the line" - it's an issue of knowing enough about how the law works to tell the difference between the initial infraction and the state's response.

    Not every infraction results in cutting off all social services. You can have a warrant out for your arrest and we don't necessarily suspend your driver's license because of that (i.e. if you're arrested on a warrant while driving we don't also charge you for driving with a suspended license. Likewise, you can be on parole (an thus not have finished you sentence) and still be provided with state funded medical care.

    It's been a really long time since the breaking of one law meant that you were declared and "outlaw" excluded from the protections of any other law.

    I do not know who you know or what you do, but I fail to see any correlation between people not liking immigrants and the Republican Party. Democrats are pure on this issue and Republicans are to be accused of disliking immigrants in general. Again you are proving my point about blurring the issues. Thanks.


    As I said in my last post, I'm not trying to say that this is something that most Republican politicians endorse. In fact, I think this is a pretty clear example of a situation in which there's a schism between the party leaders and a chunk of the base. But that there's a schism doesn't matter unless that fact resonates with people, and it simply isn't. People still lump all Republicans in with racists and morons like Limbaugh, and it hurts us every time we talk about the issue.

    So just to make it clear: I AGREE THAT OPPOSING IMMIGRATION (legal or illegal) DOESN'T MAKE YOU A RACIST. My point is that the distinction is lost in the debate and it hurts Republicans to talk immigration at all.

    If you want to pull some race cards, what about the Black politicians and their positions on illegal Hispanic immigration while supporting efforts to allow mass immigration from Caribbean hell holes such as Haiti.
    Uhh....

    I'll rep any post that can at all explain to me how this is in any way a coherent or topical argument/response...

    Why does it matter what black politicians do? They could presumably be racist as well...

    As I stated in my post --recent Hispanic immigrants are generally social conservatives as Catholics and immigrants from rural areas. They are also sympathetic to attractions of the Democratic Party as well.

    I agree, and this is a big part of why I dislike the anti-immigration wing of the party so much. There's a natural place for a big part of the Hispanic population inside the Republican party and the immigration stuff does a lot to undo that. If Republicans can't at least become competitive among Hispanic voters we're going to make ourselves politically irrelevant for the near future (especially in states like Texas).

  19. #19
    Viking Prince's Avatar Horrible(ly cute)
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    Default Re: How to Save the Republican Party?

    Not every infraction results in cutting off all social services. You can have a warrant out for your arrest and we don't necessarily suspend your driver's license because of that (i.e. if you're arrested on a warrant while driving we don't also charge you for driving with a suspended license. Likewise, you can be on parole (an thus not have finished you sentence) and still be provided with state funded medical care.
    The problem with illegal immigration is the consequence. This is not the same as a suspended license though they both can be civil issues. The consequence under the law is deportation. This is completely inconsistent with any question of issuing drivers' licenses or social welfare benefits. How can the government enforce the rule of law when the person should be deported and at the same time issue a license to drive which is also a form of identification to show legal due process?

    The problem is serious and not simply limited to controlling the borders. Illegals are vulnerable to blackmail, coersion into criminal activities, etc.
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  20. #20
    magickyleo101's Avatar Here Come The Judge
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    Default Re: How to Save the Republican Party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    The problem with illegal immigration is the consequence. This is not the same as a suspended license though they both can be civil issues. The consequence under the law is deportation. This is completely inconsistent with any question of issuing drivers' licenses or social welfare benefits. How can the government enforce the rule of law when the person should be deported and at the same time issue a license to drive which is also a form of identification to show legal due process?
    I think the best way to explain the sanctuary cities/drivers license/social services thing goes like this:

    There's a difference in American law between so-called procedural laws (e.g. laws of evidence, statutes of limitations, etc.) and substantive laws (e.g. laws saying you can't have cocaine), but the causal effect of each type of law might be the same. For example, if the police illegally raid your house and they catch you holding 30 pounds of cocaine in your arms, you'll get off because the exclusionary rule will bar the introduction of the only evidence upon which a conviction could be based (you holding the coke). The substantive effect of the exclusionary rule in this case is the same as if there were no law against having the cocaine.

    Nonetheless, it doesn't go against the "rule of law" for the judge to impose the exclusionary rule. In fact, it would go against the rule of law for the judge to allow the evidence. The point is, you can still uphold the rule of law, even when the effect of the procedural rule you're enforcing makes another, substantive law less effective. Both rules are equally part of the law.

    Likewise, the operative law in a sanctuary city is a procedural one. The rules go something like "the police can't ask whether you're a citizen when you report a crime" or "the state official can't ask for ID when you renew a driver's license." Both restrict the kind of evidence that can be collected. Yes, both rules undermine the substantive rule you mention (illegal presence => deportation), but that doesn't mean that their enforcement or passage goes against the "rule of law."

    The problem is serious and not simply limited to controlling the borders. Illegals are vulnerable to blackmail, coersion into criminal activities, etc.
    I agree. I want to be clear that I'm not endorsing some kind of pro-illegal-immigration policy. My potions have been limited to 1) claiming the the rule-of-law "issue" isn't really and issue; and 2) claiming that it hurts Republicans to talk about immigration and we should stop.

    I personally support a border wall, though primarily for drug-smuggling reasons.
    Last edited by magickyleo101; June 10, 2009 at 03:20 AM.

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