For some of you who reading french a very good documentation about french artillery http://praetiritifides.chez.com/Anc_...llerie_ToC.htm
For some of you who reading french a very good documentation about french artillery http://praetiritifides.chez.com/Anc_...llerie_ToC.htm
Sometimes i don't understand some of my fellow colleages military historians. I wonder why waste times on who had a better navy or were better shipbuilder, since in the end England won. It's like writing articles on the "superiority" of the germans as soldier and how the Nazis wasted this heritage, why westerners and more precisely northern europeans are better soldiers than the rest of humanity, the superiority of the "occidental way of war... Yes, i read some articles on those topics from serious college and university professors. Their argumentation is often based on a biased perception and representation of the past.
England and France had both their strengh and weaknesses. Many times the french overloaded their ships with canons and diminished their seaworthiness and their structural resistance and the ships simply collapsed during battles. We know that England got the upper hand with their navy despite some french sucesses and especially during the 7 years war and later during the revolutionary and napoleonic wars. But France had also to face threats on land as well and could not concentrate its resources on the navy like England did. That's explain why England's strategy to seize the french colonies in India and Americas during the 7 years war while the french were busy fighting in Europe. "Why save the barns when the house is on fire" said the french colony minister to the governor of New France about reinforcements.
Je suis un handicapé social affectif chronique! Ouin pis...
Hi.
I am french.
Funny thread. It's the first time I hear something about french naval superiority over the British.
We all know that the British fleet were far better, that's why we never invade them.
Even if we have a very long bashing tradition between us , we can admit they were better on sea, as we were better on land .
It was just a priority question.
Last edited by deums; July 24, 2009 at 01:07 PM.
actually, nobody said French were better. They built several interesting designs, but when is quality of crew and officers in question, British were far better. France always had problems to man its ships with full crews...
Hi all ... i precise an important think that there was a great difference between French navy before revolution and after. Befor revolution they were well trained and as the same (but little less at worth) quality of British. But after the revolution it's a real catastroph for French navy. Many Officer and commander were aristrocrats and they quit the navy and sometime their country to protect their family, there goods or themself. Many other sailors returned in there family for the same reasons ! That is the major reason that explain the poor quality of French navy during and just after the revolution. Plus : the french military ship production stop during 2/3 years ! The French navy never catch up his delay towards British navy ...
Ship construction was the least of their problems in the Napoleonic era, they were already hemorrhaging ships in combat again the RN.Plus : the french military ship production stop during 2/3 years ! The French navy never catch up his delay towards British navy ...
By the time of Trafalagar the French fleet had been badly neglected, and Boney had skimmed off the best men for the army. The French had some excellent designs and their Naval Architects were some of the best in Europe. Trafalagar was a huge gamble, and was, as Wellington might put it "a very near-run thing". The French also had some very competent admirals, like De Grasse.
The British had the best trained officers and gun crews, and that is well-documented. The Midshipman system of officer training was well ahead of it's time. Aristocrats could buy commissions in the army, even Colonelcys, but in the RN, a midshipman had to pass examination. Social standing notwithstanding.
"If you're in a fair fight, you didn't plan it properly". -- Nick Lappos
I wouldn't call Trafalgar a gamble.
The Combined fleet was heading back into the Med in shame and failure after Boney had canceled the invasion of England.
Had Nelson not come upon them they'd have slunk off to Malaga and Toulon and await being blockade like they had been before the whole adventure had started.
as Beastro said, Villeneuve was already fired, but he kinda ignored the orders and rather took the fleet to the battle to clear his name from being a coward.
French Navy had lots of problems with crews, and its true that Bonaparte often borrowed naval gunners to his field artillery regiments. so with rookie crews, French navy was no match for English Navy...
Maybe ! but you can try to speak an other language before criticize me, it's not my native language and it's very hard for me to write english (i practice it only here). If you were a gentleman you'll write this in perfect french " vous avez gagné l'oscar de la grammaire la plus mauvaise de la semaine".
It's by cause of some guys like you that i hesitate to try to perfect my english. If you want to help me i'm ready, i prefer someone who help me than someone who like Laugh of me
Time for some comic relief I think: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxUm-2x-2dM&feature=fvst
And a musical interlude, instead of pointless arguing:
Come all you thoughtless young men, A warning take by me,
And never leave your happy homes, To sail the raging seas,
For I have ploughed the raging main, This twenty years and more,
But now I am turned adrift to starve, Upon my native shore.
When war at first assailed us, I quickly left my trade,
Our country was in danger, I flew to lend my aid,
And in my country's service, Long, long fatigues I bore,
But now I'm turned adrift to starve, Upon my native shore.
By storms and raging tempests, Shipwrecked three times I've been,
And many a bloody battle, Upon the seas I have seen.
I've seen the cannon's glaring flash, Have heard its murd'rous roar,
Tho' now I'm turned adrift to starve, Upon my native shore.
The British Seaman's valour, To all the world is known,
We conquer still where e'er we go, The action is our own.
The Meteor flag of Haughty Gaul, Triumphantly we bore,
But now we are turned adrift to starve, Upon my native shore.
Should hostile fleets e'er venture, Upon the raging main,
True Hearts of Oak we British Tars, We'll push to sea again.
And bravely bring their ships to port, As we have done before.
So help us now while we are in want, Upon our native shore.
Come pity ye gentle stranger, A luckless British tar,
In your defence you yet may hurl, The thunder bolt of war,
Come lend me some kind assistance, And heaven will bless your store,
For now I'm turned adrift to starve, Upon my native shore.
Most Serene.
I am not sure where the notion that French guns were better comes from. Certainly their continued reliance on linstocks after the RN had moved over to flintlock mechanisms does no bear that out. Linstock firing makes it far less predictable when you actually get your gun to fire, and when you loose off is important when the ship is rolling. French ships were lightly built and 'scientifically' designed to improve streamlining. For the RN, reinforcing the hulls of French ships was an important element to putting them into service, as well as doing what they could to strengthen the scantlings. British crew training involved gun drill once each day, which contributed to an extremely high rate of fire. The midshipman system produced captains that knew their business, and you were never able to buy a rank in the RM or the Marines: this meant that any officer had to work his way through the Admiralty's Board exam and knew his business thoroughly. Then there is the whole Admiralty organisation, reckoned to be the largest single employer of peacetime labour in the period: just think of all the carpenters, ships chandlers, caulkers...An organisation that is often left to rust in peacetime but it is always there, whereas other countries lacked the considerable centralised and structured complexity of the Admiralty. The main problem is tactics. This applied to everyone as the ability to tactically direct ships was a known problem that was never solved adequately. But the French maintained an active squadron after the SYW that did give then a tactical edge over the RN who had not really thought beyond the very rigid 'fighting instructions'. But, well, seeing signals in smoke is tough...
StV