do people choose to go to hell ?

[handsome pete]

this is a topic of debate amoungst christians. want to know what others think.

this is copy and pasted example of a christian argument against.

• In Matthew 7:21-23 it says that many WANTING to enter the kingdom of heaven will be told by Jesus, “Depart from me you workers of of lawlessness I never knew you!” Firstly this doesn’t sound like a person who chose to go to Hell.
• In Matthew 13:41-42 it says that there will be WEEPING and gnashing of teeth. Secondly, this doesn’t sound like a people who want to go to hell.
• Matthew 25:41-46 tells us again Jesus separates one from another and the wicked are cast into hell.
• Revelation 20:11-13 says the wicked are judged by their works and cast into the lake of fire. Note: The wicked are JUDGED by their WORKS!
• Rev 11:18 God is thanked for his wrath on the workers of lawlessness. Clearly God is the one pouring out wrath and they suffer it not out of choice but because they deserve it!
• The false teaching that man chooses to go to hell assumes that the default is Heaven. The bible teaches that the un-regenerate man already stands condemned. (John 3:17-18). He deserves it!
• Matthew 10:28; we are told to fear Him who is able to throw both soul and body in hell!

http://www.thlibo.com/2008/11/17/do-...nd-them-there/

just remember that not everyone will understand this statement in the same way.

[The Alchemist]

People choose to go to hell by their actions on earth. If they pray earnestly and beg God to let them into paradise, yet go around delighting in debauchery, it clearly shows that they do not want to be with God. They are granted there wish and are seperated from God and put in hell.

[Dayman]

People choose to go to hell by their actions on earth. If they pray earnestly and beg God to let them into paradise, yet go around delighting in debauchery, it clearly shows that they do not want to be with God. They are granted there wish and are seperated from God and put in hell.

Blaming the victim, eh?

They "choose" to follow the innate desires and drives that God created in them and are condemned for being human. Doesn't sound like choice to me

Since accepting Jesus is a choice

Pity those who find Jesus' choice thrust upon them for no fault of their own. "Hey, welcome to the world, join or die."

[Playfishpaste]

Blaming the victim, eh?

They "choose" to follow the innate desires and drives that God created in them and are condemned for being human. Doesn't sound like choice to me

Pity those who find Jesus' choice thrust upon them for no fault of their own. "Hey, welcome to the world, join or die."

That still is a choice. If that isn't a choice to you then nothing at all is a choice to you. Free will is simply a byproduct of genetically engineered chemical responses in the brain. What you will do is predictable mathematically and who you are is governed by electrochemical reactions and environmental stimuli. If you consider that "not within human control" then there is no such thing as free will to you.

[handsome pete]

but it's not a choice because i am unable to perform any action which will result in me believing that your god is real. even hypnosis is ineffective on me. it's like me asking you to believe in the tooth fairy.

playfish i noticed that you went straight for the easy to bring down argument and skipped right over my harder question to answer.

since my argument is unavoidable what do you as a "christian" then conclude about the rest of us that make it. what are you thinking, but apparently unwilling to say about the basis of this argument.

[Playfishpaste]

but it's not a choice because i am unable to perform any action which will result in me believing that your god is real. even hypnosis is ineffective on me. it's like me asking you to believe in the tooth fairy.

The tooth fairy doesn't behave in the same way as god does in any christian religion. The choice is laid out and fair warning is given. God considers millions of people telling you about the word as well as your own sightings of anything divine as sufficient material to make a wise choice with.

playfish i noticed that you went straight for the easy to bring down argument and skipped right over my harder question to answer.

I don't think I ever did, could you show me where? I was responding to boeing there, not you, that may have caused the confusion. My original post in the thread is pretty much my refutation of those things, but just to be specific I will lay out why:

In Matthew 7:21-23 it says that many WANTING to enter the kingdom of heaven will be told by Jesus, “Depart from me you workers of of lawlessness I never knew you!” Firstly this doesn’t sound like a person who chose to go to Hell.

That's because they will have wanted to enter at the end of their lives. When a criminal commits 70 rapes, he isn't thinking about the punishment, but then when the punishment comes, he says "Wait, please don't punish me" even though he knew what the punishment was and still chose to ignore it.

In Matthew 13:41-42 it says that there will be WEEPING and gnashing of teeth. Secondly, this doesn’t sound like a people who want to go to hell.
Matthew 25:41-46 tells us again Jesus separates one from another and the wicked are cast into hell.

Again, when a criminal is brought to the electric chair, he will be weeping and gnashing away, but he still chose that chair.

Revelation 20:11-13 says the wicked are judged by their works and cast into the lake of fire. Note: The wicked are JUDGED by their WORKS!

The wicked are judged by their choices. These are their works. I choose to kill someone, I go to hell, in christianity.

Rev 11:18 God is thanked for his wrath on the workers of lawlessness. Clearly God is the one pouring out wrath and they suffer it not out of choice but because they deserve it!

They chose to be wicked when they had the option to not do so.

The false teaching that man chooses to go to hell assumes that the default is Heaven. The bible teaches that the un-regenerate man already stands condemned. (John 3:17-18). He deserves it!

the default is not being a bad person, which would in fact, get you into heaven.

Matthew 10:28; we are told to fear Him who is able to throw both soul and body in hell!

I assume you think of "fear" here in the same way you think of fear of flight or spiders. If that is the case you need to read more about theology.

since my argument is unavoidable what do you as a "christian" then conclude about the rest of us that make it. what are you thinking, but apparently unwilling to say about the basis of this argument.

I'm an atheist christian, I don't believe in any of the stories in the bible.

[Dayman]

That still is a choice. If that isn't a choice to you then nothing at all is a choice to you. Free will is simply a byproduct of genetically engineered chemical responses in the brain. What you will do is predictable mathematically and who you are is governed by electrochemical reactions and environmental stimuli. If you consider that "not within human control" then there is no such thing as free will to you.

Determinism aside, a "cake or death" type of choice portrays an illusion of choice, not a real choice on its own.

[Playfishpaste]

Determinism aside, a "cake or death" type of choice portrays an illusion of choice, not a real choice on its own.

You overestimate people's love of divine pastry.

I'd rather Satan's death.

[chamaeleo]

Sure we do!

I've been to Detroit to see the Ford Museum.

[Hilarion]

Sure we do!

I've been to Detroit to see the Ford Museum.

+Rep for that one .

[Claudius Gothicus]

What's hell? Not being able to meet God? Being pinched by a guy in a red suit for all eternity? Faust hell?

And how could an "all loving and forgiving" god send you there anyways because he likes to punish? Doesn't every human deserve a chance after all we make mistakes, it's is our nature.

According to the Christian view God has already foreseen everything in the future, and created time itself, so people don't really choose to go God chooses you...

[Cluny the Scourge]

If Heaven is filled with snivelling evangelical Christian bigots and crazy-eyed Muslim suicide-bombers, then yes we certainly do choose to go to Hell, because it will be a considerably more pleasant place to spend time.

[Claudius Gothicus]

If Heaven is filled with snivelling evangelical Christian bigots and crazy-eyed Muslim suicide-bombers, then yes we certainly do choose to go to Hell, because it will be a considerably more pleasant place to spend time.

You'll also meet with the most interesting people.

[Garrigan]

I think many christians believe that one does chose to go to hell when they "reject god". There seems to be some misunderstanding about the nature of belief, that it is a willfull ignorance on the part of the "unbeliever" which stops them from seeing god's existence.

This is untrue. I cant close my eyes, wish very hard, and find suddenly that I am a christian, and that I do believe; it just doesnt work like that. If you look at it from a standpoint of God's existence then its extremely unfair. I cant chose to be a believer, so the fact I am an atheist must be down to "who I am" in someway. If God created me, then surely he has something to do with my disbelief? Does it not then seem unfair for him to punish me for it? Like Claudius said, that does not seem very "forgiving", in fact it seems wilfully malevolent.

EDIT: hmm...Hell could be a mixed bag to be honest. Yes it would be filled with most of the world's most interesting people, but there would be huge issues with overcrowding due to the overly stringent admitance rules to heaven. Also the large numbers of distraught Catholics/Protestants/Muslims/Jews etc who realised they backed the wrong horse would be annoying as...well, hell.

[Playfishpaste]

Yes they do choose to go to hell, just like one who decides to go on a bridge after several people have told him the bridge is unstable, chooses to die.

[VALIS]

Calvinists believe God has selected an elect and non-elect group of people to go to heaven or hell. They believe you don't have a choice.

[Phier]

Well this is an easy one.

People choose to go to hell. They choose to go to hell by rejecting Jesus as their lord and savior. If you accept Jesus as lord, you will join the father in heaven, if you do not, you will suffer eternal damnation. Since accepting Jesus is a choice, with a clear outcome, it is therefore safe to say that people choose hell.

[CtrlAltDe1337]

While people do "choose" Hell by their actions just like criminals might be said to choose to go to prison by breaking the law, no one wakes up and says "gee it would be nice to burn in eternal torment when I die. I think I'll take that over going to Heaven!"

[handsome pete]

@ phier

Since accepting Jesus is a choice, with a clear outcome

it's not a choice with a clear outcome to me.

are you calling me a liar ?

[Helm]

I'm not sure why they would want to, but I guess Heaven does sound a bit boring, particularly if somesones say a mascochist.