Original Sin

**Shams al-Ma'rifa** · June 04, 2009, 11:23 AM

I know that not all Christians believe in this concept but this is a question to those who do. Am I supposed to believe that innocent children are born with sin because of a screw up their ancestors committed thousands of years ago?

Do you believe it would be fair if we were jailed just because one of our ancestors committed a crime centuries ago, even though we had nothing to do with it?

**Poach** · June 04, 2009, 11:26 AM

Further to this, if God is all knowing did he not know full well that this would occur upon casting out Satan, and thus fully intended sin to be a part of our lives? Due to him also being all powerful, he had it easily within his power to prevent the apple being eaten.

This must lead to the conclusion that God is either not all knowing, not all powerful, or that sin is not contrary to God's designs of life.

**~~removeduser_426582376423734~~** · June 04, 2009, 11:27 AM

No, you see, he gave Adam and Eve a choice. Even though he knew what they would choose.

**Poach** · June 04, 2009, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Shyam

No, you see, he gave Adam and Eve a choice. Even though he knew what they would choose.

Thus surely, due to His knowledge of the outcome, he fully intended sin to come about, as he knew that by casting out Satan that these events would occur?

**Old_Scratch** · June 04, 2009, 11:32 AM

The god of the OT was clearly not all knowing. He was short sighted and was usually angered by his mistakes. He could also be argued with to change his mind. Original sin is a little odd though, didn't Jesus die to take away the sins of the world? Why is there any sin at all?

**Poach** · June 04, 2009, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Old_Scratch

The god of the OT was clearly not all knowing. He was short sighted and was usually angered by his mistakes. He could also be argued with to change his mind.

Is this why today the NT is focused on? As I hear Christians regularly stating God to be all knowing, all powerful and all loving.

Originally Posted by Old_Scratch

Original sin is a little odd though, didn't Jesus die to take away the sins of the world? Why is there any sin at all?

I believe the concept behind Jesus was "Believe I'm the Son of God and I shall take upon your sins"?

**Old_Scratch** · June 04, 2009, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Poach

Is this why today the NT is focused on? As I hear Christians regularly stating God to be all knowing, all powerful and all loving.

Well Jesus didn't really say anything to indicate that he was all knowing either, in fact his prophecy about the end of the world was wrong. I was just pointing out that the god of the OT is clearly not meant to be portrayed as all knowing, a concept which came later.

Originally Posted by Poach

I believe the concept behind Jesus was "Believe I'm the Son of God and I shall take upon your sins"?

Ah, there's a catch. So he died to take away the sins of some people. I guess the title "lamb of god who taketh away the sins of the world" is not entirely accurate.

**Pontifex Maximus** · June 15, 2009, 07:48 AM

The concept of original sin is ridiculous. It also implies that sin is hereditary, so each consecutive generation that follows is more screwed than the last.

Originally Posted by Old_Scratch

The god of the OT was clearly not all knowing. He was short sighted and was usually angered by his mistakes. He could also be argued with to change his mind. Original sin is a little odd though, didn't Jesus die to take away the sins of the world? Why is there any sin at all?

They explained that in a gospel that didn't make it into the bible:

Peter 1:17 "Jesus, as he was ascending into heaven, he looked down upon the gathering, stretched out his hands and spoke, 'jk lol' then disappeared".

**Imperator Romani** · June 15, 2009, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by Old_Scratch

The god of the OT was clearly not all knowing. He was short sighted and was usually angered by his mistakes. He could also be argued with to change his mind. Original sin is a little odd though, didn't Jesus die to take away the sins of the world? Why is there any sin at all?

...you don't read the Bible do you? You just repeat what others have said...it's like that game that you play when you're a kid: you form a line of like 20 kids, give a kid on the end a phrase and tell him to pass it down the line by whispering it to his neighbor, and seeing how f'd up it comes out to be...

You are on the f'd up side of that line my friend

He let his people learn from their mistakes, and punished them when they continued to do wrong and rewarded them when they did good, just like a father. He let them dig their own graves. He wasn't angry at himself, ha! where did you get that from, he was angry with his people. No Jesus died so we can have forgiveness for our sins, but I can see how down the line you can get your belief. Read Genesis? Yeah that answers your question.

**basics** · June 16, 2009, 02:57 PM

For sure it is written that He died for all so that all might live but that is not to reason that all will live in heaven as those that are born again must do.

At Judgement all are raised, the saints first and then the rest, that is all them under the banner of the false prophet and his master. The church or body is judged first and the others immediately after.

The body then takes it's place in heaven whilst the others are cast into eternal torment. So we see from that that the blood shed at Calvary cleansed only them heaven bound but it did not cleanse the others even though at the last day all are raised.

That is why the body, or church is called the elect. Election is a despised word in religion and well it might be for do not the religious claim to have their own destiny within their own religion? Yet election is particular and is meant to be because they who are of the elect are a separated people.

Now that is seen in Genesis both at the fall from the type that is heaven, the garden, and the promises given to Abraham that through his seed, singular, the elect of God would come, not by works but faith, the faith of Jesus Christ, who is that seed.

**Shams al-Ma'rifa** · June 04, 2009, 11:34 AM

ye god in the OT/NT changes his mind a lot. first he established original sin, then he erased it by turning into a human and sacrificing himself... although i can see how a few atheists might use these points to bash religion in general *cough* *cough*

**~~Ummon~~** · June 04, 2009, 12:20 PM

He who can do anything, can by definition, know anything.

**Mythre** · June 04, 2009, 12:50 PM

Ugg... another God bashing thread. Does anyone tire of these? Especially when the ones doing the bashing have no in depth theological training and take a supposed "inconsistency" and don't try to find out what is really going on and just take to the attack.

**Shams al-Ma'rifa** · June 04, 2009, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Mythre

Ugg... another God bashing thread. Does anyone tire of these?

yes, even though i'm a god fearing man, i'm bashing the almighty anyways for the lulz... no rather, this is a thread questioning the bible's confusing view of god...

Especially when the ones doing the bashing have no in depth theological training and take a supposed "inconsistency" and don't try to find out what is really going on and just take to the attack

i don't need in depth theological training to read the bible's confusing passages and concepts, like the concept of original sin...

don't you get tired when someone posts irrelevant comments in threads and end up not addressing the question anyways?

Originally Posted by Nikos

But I don't see how it makes sense with Christ's sacrifice and subsequent salvation.

i don't see how the whole concept makes sense period...

**Old_Scratch** · June 04, 2009, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Ummon

He who can do anything, can by definition, know anything.

But it seems pretty clear that the writers of the OT were not in any way trying to depict a god that has limitless knowledge, or even depict him as the only god in existence. He seems portrayed more like the Greek gods. He is powerful and wise, but also prone to mistakes and human emotions.

There are many of examples of this in the OT, and Numbers 14 is a good one. Moses convinces Yahweh not to give the Israelites a deadly disease as he intended to because it would make god look bad to the Egyptians. So he decides to make them wander the desert for 40 years instead. In this case, the possibility of failure and embarrassment was able to change the mind of Yahweh.

Also, In Genesis 6:6 Yahweh regrets ever making the human race. This all makes sense when viewed from the perspective of the ancient polytheistic and monolatristic Israelites. It only becomes contradictory when we introduce all knowing and infallible concepts to god.

**~~removeduser_426582376423734~~** · June 04, 2009, 12:52 PM

I tire more of those who don't read threads but post anyway.

**Mythre** · June 04, 2009, 12:53 PM

I read the thread.

**Phier** · June 04, 2009, 01:04 PM

The entire concept of original sin is rather weak to start with, and is mostly a later addition to doctrine.

I read it as due to Adam's sin we all suffer death, and due to Jesus's sacrifice we can all be reborn to the Lord at death.

Later people have tried to interpret scripture to mean the children themselves are sinners for being born out of lust, but thats just their opinion its not based on scripture.

**Nikos** · June 04, 2009, 01:04 PM

I don't know much about the doctrine of Original sin as the Orthodox Church rejected it from the start, but I think it developed in the West to show the importance of Baptism. But I don't see how it makes sense with Christ's sacrifice and subsequent salvation.