View Poll Results: Is patriotism a good thing?

Voters
64. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes. [I'm from the US]

    15 23.44%
  • No. [I'm from the US]

    7 10.94%
  • Yes. [I'm from the EU]

    13 20.31%
  • No. [I'm from the EU]

    9 14.06%
  • Yes. [Somewhere else]

    12 18.75%
  • No. [Somewhere else]

    8 12.50%
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 67

Thread: Is patriotism a good thing?

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    magickyleo101's Avatar Here Come The Judge
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    1,288

    Default Is patriotism a good thing?

    I thought it might be nice to break out of the fairly ubiquitous religion fight and shift to another topic (also, this is a fairly international forum, so I think it would be interesting to get the perspective of people in different countries [especially to see the perspective of those in the EU vs. those in America]).

    So let's start with a basic definition so we don't talk past each other. Let's say that someone is "patriotic" for the purposes of our discussion if they have and act on loyalties to a particular country that go beyond the minimal civic obligations that anyone would have if they lived in that country (e.g. paying taxes, phoning in burned out traffic lights, etc.). That is, they're patriotic if they favor their country in a way that goes beyond just obeying the law and thinking their country is "pretty cool" or cheering for their country in soccer.

    So an example of this might be supporting your country in a war, not because you think you're country is necessarily in the right (maybe you think both countries are equally justified in what they're trying to accomplish) but just because it's "your country." Another example would be opposing a trade/immigration policy which you think would create a net benefit for the world as a whole but a net loss for your country in particular.

    So is patriotism thus defined a good or a bad thing? Are there more extreme forms of patriotism that are just as justified (i.e. could you go beyond the level of loyalty in the definition and still have your patriotism be a good thing)? Are there less extreme forms that are more justified?



    I'll start by playing devil's advocate:

    First, patriotism is a bad thing because it's materially indistinguishable from racism.

    In both the case of racism and patriotism, some individuals are favored and others disfavored because of what's usually an accident of birth (i.e. where someone was born). As in the case racism, this arbitrary favor/disfavor has a material impact on the lives of others. Opposition to a trade policy which hurts your country is no more justifiable than opposition to a trade policy which hurts members of your race - you're denying people jobs in both cases based on something most people can't change.


    Second, even if patriotism were distinguishable from racism it would still be a bad thing because patriotism treats as morally relevant facts about the world which simply aren't. A person should strive to be impartial when evaluating the policies/actions of any country and taking into account a special bias in favor of one's own country impedes that obligation. An action doesn't become better or more worthy of support simply because it's taken by the country in which one was born.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Is patriotism a good thing?

    Patriotism is based on such issues as culture, religion, political theory, national art, national history, national achievements, etc. Racism is based on unavoidable physical characteristics. All races are created equal; all cultures, religions, nations, or political theories are not.

    Patriotism is also inherent. Parents do not love their children because they have done something extraordinary; they love them because it is natural--people love their children. It is the same with one's country.
    Make America great again!

  3. #3
    magickyleo101's Avatar Here Come The Judge
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    1,288

    Default Re: Is patriotism a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion View Post
    Patriotism is based on such issues as culture, religion, political theory, national art, national history, national achievements, etc. Racism is based on unavoidable physical characteristics. All races are created equal; all cultures, religions, nations, or political theories are not.
    If only "culture, religion, political theory, national art, national history, national achievements, etc." were affected by support for a country's behavior then this would probably end the discussion.

    But that's not the case. Individuals are affected by what other countries do, and why should you support a policy that hurts more people than it helps simply because it helps "your country"?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Is patriotism a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by magickyleo101 View Post
    Individuals are affected by what other countries do, and why should you support a policy that hurts more people than it helps simply because it helps "your country"?
    For the same reason I would shoot someone who tried to hurt my children (if I had any).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiyenyaa View Post
    Definately not. If it were, revolution would be an impossible thing - at least once a countries' "natural" borders have been established.
    Patriotism does not mean love for the government. It means loyalty to the nation. The only illustration I can think of is the Russian concept of "the Motherland". Russians love the Motherland no matter who rules it. I love also America, although I despise our current government.
    Last edited by Shi Huangdi; June 04, 2009 at 10:42 AM.
    Make America great again!

  5. #5

    Default Re: Is patriotism a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion View Post
    Patriotism is based on such issues as culture, religion, political theory, national art, national history, national achievements, etc. Racism is based on unavoidable physical characteristics. All races are created equal; all cultures, religions, nations, or political theories are not.

    Patriotism is also inherent. Parents do not love their children because they have done something extraordinary; they love them because it is natural--people love their children. It is the same with one's country.
    It is natural to love your country? Then why do more than half of the population of mine wants to break it in two? Half of our politicians hate our country (or atleast they hate the other half of it - them who must not be named). We want to destroy our country, let it be absorbed in a greater nation. We are probably the must un-patriotic people in the world . The only patriotism I feel is for the european union. Destroy those national boundaries, a federal Europe baby .

  6. #6
    Fiyenyaa's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, United Kingdom
    Posts
    2,664

    Default Re: Is patriotism a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion View Post
    Patriotism is also inherent. Parents do not love their children because they have done something extraordinary; they love them because it is natural--people love their children. It is the same with one's country.
    Definately not. If it were, revolution would be an impossible thing - at least once a countries' "natural" borders have been established.

    I wouldn't describe myself as a patriot - I'm glad I live in the UK, because of it's standard of living, and relative freedoms. But there are still things that should be changed, still things to improve, and still things that are not right.

    Like CtrlAltDe1337 said: "My country right or wrong" is a very bad idea...

  7. #7
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Louisville, Kentucky
    Posts
    12,890

    Default Re: Is patriotism a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiyenyaa View Post
    Definately not. If it were, revolution would be an impossible thing
    Not necessarily. Most revolutions have been done with the intent to "save" or change the country for the better.

  8. #8
    /|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    10,770

    Default Re: Is patriotism a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beren Erchamion View Post
    All races are created equal; all cultures, religions, nations, or political theories are not.
    No that's not right, if all races were 'created' equal then there would not be a difference to identify - racism would be impossible.

    The point of equality is treating people as equals whether they are or not.

    Women should be given equal opportunities even though they have more sexual stamina than men - no erection required.

    'Black' people should be given equal opportunities even though their skin does not show signs of aging as quickly as 'white' people.

    We don't pretend that everyone is equal (that is just denial), instead we acknowledge the differences and come to terms with them. Then we decide to treat them the same as people of our own race.

  9. #9
    CtrlAltDe1337's Avatar Praepositus
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    5,424

    Default Re: Is patriotism a good thing?

    Patriotism is good when you don't have blind patriotism. That is, don't follow your country when it is wrong. Things like xenophobia and bad wars are easily disguised as patriotic, but really aren't. A real patriot is someone who loves their country, but isn't afraid to point out its faults and try to correct them. "My country right or wrong" is a very bad idea...


  10. #10
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Louisville, Kentucky
    Posts
    12,890

    Default Re: Is patriotism a good thing?

    Exactly as CAD said.

    Further, I'd say that the OP's definition is flawed.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Is patriotism a good thing?

    I say you're right, patriotism is pretty much having pride in your country, and having pride on anything tends to blind our judgement (like your example of the war or the migration system).

    And as you said, how can you say you are proud of something you didn't have a choice over?
    I say that the only way you could feel proud of your country is if you leave your country, travel around the world, learn about all the countries in the world and their policies, and THEN, if your country is the best of all of them, then you can feel proud; however that would also mean that everyone in the world must NOT feel proud of their country and must thus love the best country.

    Now, you may ask "what makes a country best?". I don't know.
    Member of S.I.N|Patronized by Boeing
    "You cannot convince a man who cannot convince himself that he might be wrong"-Finsternis
    “The great mass of people will more easily fall victim
    to a big lie than to a small one.”
    -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf(1925)
    "
    There are two kinds of people who don't care about politics: the ones too dumb to care and the ones too smart to care" - Finsternis

  12. #12

    Default Re: Is patriotism a good thing?

    Patriotism as in loving the land you live and toil on and over then yeah.

    But patriotism can be converted to nationalism, and that stuff's like nitro glycerin.
    But mark me well; Religion is my name;
    An angel once: but now a fury grown,
    Too often talked of, but too little known.

    -Jonathan Swift

    "There's only a few things I'd actually kill for: revenge, jewelry, Father O'Malley's weedwacker..."
    -Bender (Futurama) awesome

    Universal truth is not measured in mass appeal.
    -Immortal Technique

  13. #13
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia
    Posts
    16,469

    Default Re: Is patriotism a good thing?

    Yes, of course patriotism is a good thing.

    Nationalism is a whole other matter my friend.

  14. #14
    Atatürk's Avatar Türküm. Doğruyum...
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    3,235

    Default Re: Is patriotism a good thing?

    Of course patriotism is a good thing. It shows you have heart, courage and character among other things.

  15. #15
    il padrino's Avatar Protector Domesticus
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Smederevo,Serbia/Trieste,Italy
    Posts
    4,860

    Default Re: Is patriotism a good thing?

    Patriotism is defined as love of and/or devotion to one's country. The word comes from the Greek patris.[1] However, patriotism has had different meanings over time, and its meaning is highly dependent upon context, geography and philosophy.
    i agree with ataturk

  16. #16
    wilpuri's Avatar It Gets Worse.
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    The Weimar Republic
    Posts
    9,512

    Default Re: Is patriotism a good thing?

    Patriotism is excellent when it is national, when it is a love for your people.

    On the other hand, the sort of contract patriotisms that are all the rage at the moment suck. In have no loyalry to the Finnish state, or lets say not a great deal of loyalty, but I am loyal to the fatherland if you know what I mean. Then again if the state conformed to true patriotism, it would have my loyalty.
    The common culture of a tribe is a sign of its inner cohesion. But tribes are vanishing from the modern world, as are all forms of traditional society. Customs, practices, festivals, rituals and beliefs have acquired a flut and half-hearted quality which reflects our nomadic and rootless existence, predicated as we are on the global air-waves.

    ROGER SCRUTON, Modern Culture

  17. #17
    Thanatos's Avatar Now Is Not the Time
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    33,188

    Default Re: Is patriotism a good thing?

    Do I love my land? Yes.
    Do I love my country? No, it's just the best place for me right now, at this moment. I could just as easily live in another Western state. Same taxes, different government.

    I don't have very much loyalty to any particular place. I don't see any reason to.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Is patriotism a good thing?

    Keep in mind the worst product of nationalism, an extreme off-shoot and interpretation of patriotism, is genocide.
    But mark me well; Religion is my name;
    An angel once: but now a fury grown,
    Too often talked of, but too little known.

    -Jonathan Swift

    "There's only a few things I'd actually kill for: revenge, jewelry, Father O'Malley's weedwacker..."
    -Bender (Futurama) awesome

    Universal truth is not measured in mass appeal.
    -Immortal Technique

  19. #19
    ACEnglish's Avatar Foederatus
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Liverpool, England
    Posts
    26

    Default Re: Is patriotism a good thing?

    Mild patriotism is harmless, though it can get slightly irritating. Strong patriotism is just nationalism in disguise. Damn I despise nationalists.




    "The Earth continues to go round, whether it's the man who kills the tiger or the tiger who eats the man. The stronger asserts his will, it's the law of nature. The world doesn't change; its laws are eternal"

  20. #20

    Default Re: Is patriotism a good thing?

    I guess patriotism is good in mild doses, but not to the point of fanatical support no matter the misgivings of the government
    --- Theseus1234
    Suum cique (To each their own) -Motto of the Kingdom of Prussia

    The Crown of Aragon AAR- The Iberian Supremacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    My opinion is 100% objective. That's how I'm so right all the time.
    ^Human hubris knows no bounds.

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •