Is a robot within god's jurisdiction?

**The Dude** · June 03, 2009, 06:58 AM

Does a robot fall within god's laws? Does god have a grip on robots? In this thread, we assume the existence of sentient AI. Note that sentient AI does not equal human behaviour. It equals complete independence and the ability to overcome obstacles without specific programming or instruction. A sentient AI may have the ability to communicate on a human level but that in no way relates to actual human thinking.

Let's take christianity and islam, and look at their Ten Commandments and Five Pillars:

Ten Commandments:
- You shall have no other gods before me
Does not apply to a robot. A robot -knows- who created him. Man. Better yet, a robot knows the very origin of his species: mechanical advancements made by man preceding the creation of sentient AI. A robot needs belief in god like an apple needs a purple coating.

- You shall not make for yourself an idol
Idolatry is human indulgence. A robot is a mathmatical creature and will undertake things only when they fall within a certain equation that has to be solved. Mathematically, a robot cannot justify idolatry as it's completely unproductive.

- You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God
In other words, don't curse and use the lord's name in vain. A robot has no use for cursing. Setbacks are mathematically compensated, total failure results in shut down. A robot does not know frustration, anger, rebellion or any sort of similar emotion that might lead to misuse of god's name.

- Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
A robot is a creature of efficiency, and taking time off to honour something unrelated to the primary task at hand is completely impossible. If the robot were specifically programmed or instructed to take a day off per week, or to celebrate certain religious holidays, then this would have nothing to do with "remembering" the Sabbath. The robot would simply execute his schedule until the formula "Productive activity = 0" appears. It's no formula he would pay any further heed to beyond the time where it appears in his list of orders to execute.

- Honor your father and mother
A robot has no father and no mother. A robot is not raised to maturity. A robot is exactly as capable upon his destruction as he is upon his creation, unless other robots/humans would add to his functionality.

- You shall not murder
Murder is tied to human morality. Murder implies a wrongness in the taking of one's life. A robot does not consider things as such. If a robot has to eliminate human life to achieve his purpose then he will do so without hesitation or regret. Additionally, a robot does not bear grudges or hatred, which in some biblical circles is considered murder too.

- You shall not commit adultery
Robot's do not have sex. Problem solved.

- You shall not steal
As with murder, the word "stealing" has morality attached. If a robot were to take from another robot something that would invalidate the other robot's functionality, then neither robot would care. The former would carry on as planned, the latter would simply shut down. There are no further consequences, certainly none of a moral nature.

- You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
You shall not lie. A robot would easily lie if it would suit his purpose. Again, morality does not apply to robots. If the robot has to travel from A to C, and B inbetween is a human obstacle, then untruthfulness, murder or theft would all be tools for the robot to get past. The fact that the human would be bothered by this is of no consequence to the robot, who would not grant it a single additional thought.

- You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, you shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor
Robot's do not have sex. Problem solved. Additionally, robots have no jealousy. If another robot has something that the robot requires for his functionality, he will take it. This ties in directly the the commandment of theft.

The Five Pillars of Islam:
- Shahadah
Professing that Muhammad is god's messenger and that there is no god but allah is something that a robot would have no difficulties with. When asked to recite these words he would recite them effortlessly, but they would bear absolutely no meaning. Additionally, a robot might refuse to recite these words if they are an obstacle to his purpose. He is completely selfish in this regard and has no interest in the possible consequences that may come with it; he will deal with those when he gets there. Another possibility is that he professes to the Shahadah only to get what he requires: this would be called lying, but the robot would not think of it like that.

- Salah
The Salah would be utterly impossible for a robot to carry out, unless his interests are somehow served by praying five times per day. If there is no specific obstacle to overcome by engaging in prayer, he will simply not do it. If there is, he will do it, but it would only be prayer to those who observe. To the robot, it would simply be the mimicing of movements, ie facing Mekka, sitting on your knees and hands and bowing to the ground. Inside the robot's CPU would be no sense of sincerity.

- Zakah
Charitable giving is completely incomprehensible to a robot. Charity by its definition implies selflessness, and a robot is in no way selfless. Everything he does is to serve his own purpose.

- Ramadan
Robots do not eat. Problem solved.

- Hajj
Like Salah and Shahadah, the Hajj would be completely unsincere. Worse yet, it would be such a significant bite out of the robot's schedule that he would simply find another way to get what he wants and would therefore refuse to participate entirely. For a human, there is added religious value to walking around a shard of meteorite seven times in a massive crowd. For a robot, it is simply a shard of meteorite inside a massive box.

Therefore:
I think we can all conclude that robots are easily the most godless creatures on earth. Even if sentient AI does not yet exist, there is absolutely no reason for robots to engage in religious practice once they -are- sentient, beyond their own personal goals they have to achieve. The fact that robots, on all occassions, completely disregard the laws of the two greatest religions on earth without any ramifications whatsoever, should demonstrate how it might very well be that god has no grip on mechanics. Worse yet, god and allah seem to allow us to make larger, smarter, better robots every day. Robotics are still continually advancing and the progress that is made in this field is at times simply staggering. Why any god would allow their minions to create of their own, not to mention create something so godless, is beyond me.

What is the opinion of religious folk on this matter?

**Shams al-Ma'rifa** · June 03, 2009, 07:12 AM

robots are required to perform these acts as much as computers, televisions, and radios are required to...

**ecclesian_knight** · June 03, 2009, 07:16 AM

well thats a tricky question.. as a member of the catholic church i think that God has jurisdiction on all things

Uhmm.. just a suggestion, i think you should not base all the christian doctrines on the ten commandments.. there are many christian belief statements and the ten commandments are one of those things that show our beliefs..the apostles creed is the summarization of our christian faith..

The first statement of the apostles creed says " I believe in God the Father almighty creator of Heaven and Earth"

and it means everything...

**The Dude** · June 03, 2009, 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by ecclesian_knight

well thats a tricky question.. as a member of the catholic church i think that God has jurisdiction on all things

Uhmm.. just a suggestion, i think you should not base all the christian doctrines on the ten commandments.. there are many christian belief statements and the ten commandments are one of those things that show our beliefs..the apostles creed is the summarization of our christian faith..

The first statement of the apostles creed says " I believe in God the Father almighty creator of Heaven and Earth"

and it means everything...

Well yes but that's more of a preface to the ten commandments, rather than an actual commandment itself. And that statement is obviously complicated by a robot's inability to believe in anything. All it can do is calculate the mathematical probability of the existence of god, which is actually one of the more commonly seen motivations for atheism today.

Originally Posted by mkesadaran

robots are required to perform these acts as much as computers, televisions, and radios are required to...

Sure. But a sentient AI would actually have a significant place within society, and some argue that a sufficiently developed sentient AI could actually be considered a lifeform of its own. That sentiment is cemented by the fact that we still don't actually know -what- life is, so it's hard to argue a sentient robot -not- being life.

**mrcrusty** · June 03, 2009, 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by The Dude

Why any god would allow their minions to create of their own, not to mention create something so godless, is beyond me.

Free will.

We are "allowed" to, because we can.

Originally Posted by The Dude

I think we can all conclude that robots are easily the most godless creatures on earth. Even if sentient AI does not yet exist, there is absolutely no reason for robots to engage in religious practice once they -are- sentient, beyond their own personal goals they have to achieve. The fact that robots, on all occassions, completely disregard the laws of the two greatest religions on earth without any ramifications whatsoever, should demonstrate how it might very well be that god has no grip on mechanics.

Well obviously that boils down to the fact that robots are machines, tools.
People are not, people are living beings with a soul (at least religious people believe so).

Robots are not judged on their actions like we are because they aren't alive to begin with per se, and so, they cannot die like people, they are just destroyed. When we die, we believe that our souls will be judged based on the actions we undertook when we were alive. Robots, obviously, don't have to deal with that.

Now, in regards to sentient AI, no matter how much it can "think" for itself, it still wasn't born, it was created, by human hands using man made technology. It lacks a soul. Of course, if you want to argue that people don't have souls, that's a different topic entirely.

**Alba gu Brath** · June 03, 2009, 07:28 AM

Robots are non-organic and hence, not created by God (If you believe in that theory). They are created by us humans and robots have no morals and will only act how we want them to.

**Chaigidel** · June 03, 2009, 07:38 AM

A machine would have a different understanding of God than we could muster, I think it would be quite extraordinary and I look forward to the day when we can ask them.

since God is a permutation which unfolds in all things, I think it would unfold in the New Mind as well.

It would likely be based purely on mathematics as a translation language for the concept of god; and it would manifest as either 0 or infinite and the philosophy would unfold for the machines based on which they placed the most importance on within calculations.

I am curious why you display laws of men and claim that they are of God. and then use that as a justification to call machines somehow outside of the influence of the Holy Devourer.

**Alba gu Brath** · June 03, 2009, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by Chaigidel

I am curious why you display laws of men and claim that they are of God. and then use that as a justification to call machines somehow outside of the influence of the Holy Devourer.

We as humans, created by God( again if you beleieve that theory) and live by his code, fall under his jurisdiction. However, a robot - a non-organic, mechanical "thing" not being, does not fall under the jurisdiction of God. Why would it? Robots cannot trully think for themselves, they are programmed by us and sometimes give the impression of self-thought, however, again, it's just an attribute programmed by us.

Why would a non-living thing fall under the jurisdiction of God? A robot doesn't know what God is. In a sense, a robot would perhaps view us as their God, being their creators and all, only if they had true A.I.

**Chaigidel** · June 03, 2009, 07:52 AM

but it will be a being, it will be alive; just a new kind of life--- perhaps the most Holy thing to ever be born anywhere, the only life capable of making the stars bloom like flowers, and turning every spinning rock and moon into a world lush with life of every variety.

only machines can do this; if we do not give them God, then they will have no drive to accomplish that which must be accomplished.

**Alba gu Brath** · June 03, 2009, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by Chaigidel

but it will be a being, it will be alive; just a new kind of life--- perhaps the most Holy thing to ever be born anywhere, the only life capable of making the stars bloom like flowers, and turning every spinning rock and moon into a world lush with life of every variety.

only machines can do this; if we do not give them God, then they will have no drive to accomplish that which must be accomplished.

Ok, you've been taking to much magic murshrooms lol, "bloom like flowers, and turning every spinning rock and moon into a world lush with life". o/j

Tell me how machines will do this?

I definately wouldn't see robots as being "holy". Robots would have no need what-so-ever for religion, for they are non-organic and could live forever if "we" let them. We, on the other hand, depend alot more on religion as we are organic and we look to our faiths that this world is more than what it appears to be etc etc.

"f we do not give them God, then they will have no drive to accomplish that which must be accomplished"

We do not want to colonise the moon or mars or wherever for God, so I don't see your point there? robots would do those things for us, not for God, as they will have no recognition of a God other than ourselves.

**Old_Scratch** · June 03, 2009, 08:26 AM

Yes, robots fall under gods jurisdiction, which is why we need to make robosexual marriage illegal.

**Aldgarkalaughskel** · June 03, 2009, 09:07 AM

Robots are within human jurisdiction, bound by the 3 laws or robotics.

A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
A robot must obey any orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

Read.

**VALIS** · June 03, 2009, 11:44 AM

Robots don't have souls so it is irrelevant whether they would be under God's jurisdiction or not.

**C-Rob** · June 03, 2009, 12:10 PM

when we make a sentient Ai, a supreme heavenly being will be the least of our worries.

**Thanatos** · June 03, 2009, 12:13 PM

Robots don't have souls, so the entire topic is moot.

**The Dude** · June 03, 2009, 12:45 PM

We don't know what a soul is. We don't know what life is. So exactly what is moot, because from where I'm standing true autonomous, sentient AI is just as alive as I am. What are humans if not organic robots? Tinker with our brain and our behaviour starts messing up, just like a robot's. Deny us our energy supply and we shut down, just like robots. How are we any more alive than a sentient AI?

What is a soul? How are you sure we even have one?

**Каие** · June 03, 2009, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by The Dude

We don't know what a soul is. We don't know what life is. So exactly what is moot, because from where I'm standing true autonomous, sentient AI is just as alive as I am. What are humans if not organic robots? Tinker with our brain and our behaviour starts messing up, just like a robot's. Deny us our energy supply and we shut down, just like robots. How are we any more alive than a sentient AI?

What is a soul? How are you sure we even have one?

You answered your own question. The soul is the difference between a Human and a Robot, and everything that comes with it.